Here we have two examples of actually existing socialism. They have made achievement but they also have problems. However, Western Marxists have made no effort in trying to help these countries. There are no Western Marxists who have made any serious analysis of the economic problems of contemporary Cuba and North Korea, they have made no policy recommendations, they do not engage with the leaders, planners, engineers, economists etc of these nations.
The same was observed during the time of the USSR. While the USSR was struggling to deal with the practical aspects of building socialism, related to matters of economic calculation, organizational structures, production efficiencies etc, Western Marxists simply contended themselves with denouncing the Soviet Union and made no effort with starting a constructive dialogue with the scientists, engineers, economists and politicians of the USSR.
Yeah I pretty much agree with this. I don’t know enough about the DPRK to talk especially positively about it but I’ll always support their struggle against imperialism regardless. Vietnam, Cuba, etc, however are just objectively good and anyone who can’t bring themself to critically support them has no right calling themself an anti-imperialist
Your moral support is useless. By abandoning, I mean the lack of constructive dialogue, no useful scientific research, no insights into the functioning of these societies etc.
I’m not really sure how you expect Western leftists to do this kinda research on the DPRK when they’re (rightfully) very cautious about how much information they put out about themselves. I’d love to learn more about their country if more unbiased information was readily available
I'm not specifically talking about you, I'm talking about the Western leftist movement at large. There is basically no political or scientific connections between these countries with the leftist politicians, economists, intellectuals etc of the imperial countries.
I'm not getting upset at all, I'm simply trying to show you people how dumb you sound with your critical support and your criticism of AES nations without engaging my main point.
I simply started a discussion showing how the relation of Western leftists to AES is essentially that of either derision or patronizing paternalism. The immense intellectual resources of these countries are not used to help these nations.
Actually it you who is lost in the discourse. I merely made an observation, asked why this observation is true, and suggested that leftists can use their knowledge to help these countries. By leftists I mean people who are actually in a position to help them, like economists, politicians etc. I don't mean the average chapodweller.
Huh? You are putting words in my mouth..
Deleted comment from OP said "NK is not socialist but AOC is," mocking a point I never made and would never make.
I didn't come here to argue with the main point. I take no issue with it.
Generally speaning I agree with Kruwuschev. My support for DPRK and China is more critical, but it is critical support.
I'm not talking about moral support. It is the immense ego of Westerners who think their moral support is worth anything. I'm talking about the actual abandonment of any political or scientific relations with the countries.
Give me concrete examples of what Western leftists should be doing.
- Research how the contemporary economies of these countries actually work using the framework of Marxian political economy.
- Make useful policy recommendations to the governments based on the research.
says western leftists have big egos
thinks third world socialist governments give a shit about the policy recommendations of western leftists
Yes they would give a shit if it was useful and based on sound scientific research. And Cuba and NK are second world, third world doesnt just mean "non-white countries". Developing nations take policy advice from think-tanks all the time.
Brb starting a think tank and spying on the DPRK’s government to gather enough intel about the inner workings of their political economy so I can tell them how they should run their country so I can finally be a good leftist
Good one. When I say economist, politicians, engineers etc, I'm definitely referring to you.
AND HOW TF DO THEY GET THE INFORMATION THEY’D NEED TO DO ANY OF THIS?!?!?!?!?! WTF DO YOU WANT THEM TO ACTUALLY DO?!?!?!?!?! THAT’S ALL I WANNA KNOW I PROMISE
DPRK and Cuba have their own Marxist political economists. Why should they take advice from Westerners who have only ever lived under capitalism? What could we possibly have to offer them?
What could we possibly have to offer them? Good question. When the bulk of Western Marxist intellectual activity is involved in psuedoscientific psychoanalysis and useless cultural criticism, they don't have a lot to offer. But there also exist a good amount of research done on political economy after Marx, and that would be very useful for any socialist experiment.
Don't you think it's patronizing to say that these "useless" Western leftists would be better at advising AES countries than the actual political economists born and raised under socialism? You're incoherent. You need to log off; this isn't the right hill to die on.
Yes by the "useless" Western leftists I mean the likes of Zizek and his followers. But people like Y. Varoufakis, Anwar Shaikh etc should definitely engage with these countries. But that's not my main question here. My question is why the relations between Western leftists and the people in AES states became one of derision or paternalism, rather than actual exchange of ideas and useful research.
Lmao so for all your grandstanding, your answer is what? That leftists should be actively pursuing some non-existent advisory position to the capitalist state? In what capacity? As private citizens? As organized groups, as if they’d listen or care. If we had the ability and breathing room to organize, why the hell wouldn’t we organize for more deliberate action? Wtf are you even on about, can’t even properly agree of disagree with you, how incoherent your point is.
I am not advising anything, I just made an observation and asked why this observation was true,, but it seems I have triggered a massive number of people. I guess the truth hurts sometimes.
Its that you came mouth swinging that we need to "Do Something!!" to support actual leftist countries, and then when asked what it is we should should get off our asses and do you boldly claimed -- spy on them and write papers that then they can be guided by our brilliant western thought.
This is some serious white savior shit.
Maybe we should do something, but telling them how to run their countries isn't it.
Lmao whatever dude, do what you need to make yourself feel like you’re doing anything other than just picking nonsense fights & projecting your own self loathing onto us. You’re more interested in justifying your absurd ego than anything else, your many mindless comments have made that clear.
I see nothing wrong with this. And agree, we need more vocal support from the celebrity left of socialist and communist countries. Don't forget Vietnam. For policy etc not sure what they could technically do other than make observations. NK is different than Cuba is different than Vietnam as well. One thing is certain though more discourse with these countries in public would help
These are my favorite struggle sessions. Op gives terrible take. Everyone tells them it’s a terrible take. They go off on what a great take it actually is.