Just... why?
Where are the lwft-wing pagans at?
(Are there some lurking on the grad?)
Time to bang my old drum again.
Marxism-Leninism is specifically based on dialectic materialism. A philosophy that very clearly postulates the material basis of the mind and everything to do with it. People often harp on USSR's anti-church policies, but frankly they didn't go far enough. You either believe in fairies, or you utilise the scientific method and recognise the materialist basis of reality, history, culture and human "spirit"
Although I agree with you about eschewing religious faith on a personal level, the reality is that a large part of the global population clings strongly to some type of theology. Going so far as to outlaw religious practice or dismantle religious institutions has historically led to the alienation of people who value religious beliefs. Plenty of people have managed to live with faith and act as positive members of our communities. The problems arise when power incentives exist for their leaders.
How religious institutions and their leaders act within and influence our systems is the main source of the problems with religion, not religious faith. Rather than trying to suppress religious practice, a better approach would be to effectively strip these institutions of their power while giving them the means to continue operating solely for religious practice and as community hubs, which is one of their main practical benefits to society.
Should they be collecting tithes, enriching religious leaders, or participating at any level as political institutions outside of combatting real persecution? No. I definitely agree with banning this. But if you give them the means to maintain their places of worship and otherwise eliminate any profit incentives, I expect these institutions as we know them would "wither away" and naturally continue acting as smaller corners of the community that will become more focused on making a positive impact and providing mutual aid.
I'm curious about your thoughts on this? I used to hold similar beliefs to what you wrote here, but I have shifted away from my anti-religious views as I've learned more ML theory. It's not that I've gained faith or anything, but moreso that I think the problems I see with religion mainly stem from the influences of the institutions operating within feudalism and capitalism.
I think stricter requirements should be placed on party members than on the general population. Party members must have a dialectical materialist world outlook, so they should not openly associate with any religion. I also think the socialist state should promote a scientific education that helps the next generation not become mired in the same superstitions as the previous. But in general only those forms of religious activity which are socially harmful or a hindrance to socialist construction should be actively suppressed by the state. Everything else can be left alone. Religious institutions should of course be subordinated to the dictatorship of the proletariat so that they cannot establish themselves in certain communities as alternative governments with their own laws, taxation, etc.
Agreed. As socialists we often struggle to educate other members of the working class on how a change in their political outlook would benefit them. Trying to change their cultural, religious, or philosophical views is not only arrogant but has also often been historically been disastrous.
It seems that we operate from the same basis, however we have arrived at different conclusions. I'll try to be constructive.
the reality is that a large part of the global population clings strongly to some type of theology.
That is a deprecation imposed on the people by the current class system. Not necessarily consciously, but certainly in order to maintain power of the bourgeoisie. Realistically, what is the difference between religion and, say, liberalism? Especially the more esoteric branches, like libertarianism or "objectivism". They are ideologies, based on idealist philosophy, that serve to explain why the exploitation and social stratification are either good or inescapable. Why bother struggling to overcome the capitalist domination when there's a kingdom of heaven waiting beyond the mortal coil? Why bother analysing class contradictions, when the Lord says be kind and have faith, for His ways are unknowable? I'm using vaguely Christian terminology here on purpose. It is our duty as communists to shed away the blinds, be they pseudo-atheist liberalism or religion.
Rather than trying to suppress religious practice, a better approach would be to effectively strip these institutions of their power while giving them the means to continue operating solely for religious practice and as community hubs, which is one of their main practical benefits to society.
Funnily enough, that's what USSR did. I'm sure you've heard the endless whining about "godless Bolsheviks slaughtering poor innocent monks boo hoo". However: it was the Soviets that have reinstated the position of patriarch of the Russian orthodox church. That's right, godless commies have returned the position of the head of the biggest religion in former empire. You see, before that, church was controlled by the Synod - which was a government body. Soviet leadership has introduced the separation of church and state, so the church received its own leadership. In fact, the patriarch has endorsed the Revolution and deposing of Nicholas 2, proclaiming it to be the will of the people.
But. Where did it lead? Oh that's right, the moment the church smelled a weakness in the socialist state, it pounced and began shitting up people's minds. Not only did it not wither away, it was one of the core vectors of anti-communism after USSR collapsed. 1996, the corpse of the Union was still warm, and the church was already installing "memorials to victims of repression" near Ekaterinburg. I'm sure you've seen the photos, looks like a weeping mask.
And now? Now the church is a big proponent of reaction. Shitting up school programs. Opening memorials in honour of monarchy, that go out of their way to paint USSR with as black of a paint as possible, with emotional manipulation galore. "Documentaries" on ebil commies in Solovki? Church endorsed. Petitioning police to launch an investigation into the "murder" of the royal family, to check if it was a "Jewish ritual"? Church endorsed. Generally professing to the masses a plethora of anti-scientific, anti-materialist crap? That's basically their main job.
Now, I don't disagree that these issues stem from the political and economic basis of society (feudalism and capitalism), but that's the thing - religion is perpetuated by these systems because it serves to strengthen and justify them. You can't "cleanse religion from capitalist influence", because it is inherent in the core philosophy. Jan Hus tried. See how that went.
Now you might say that everything I've said applies mostly to the big, established, organised religions, not faith on a personal level. But why won't it? Why would "neopaganism" be somehow different from Protestantism, from Islam? If you believe in magic, even on a personal level, then these beliefs will inevitably clash with the materialism required from developed ML theory. And if you see religious groups as a pathway to belonging, to being part of a community - then keep in mind, that such communities will be thr vectors from which reaction spreads - because they will be more important to their members than class organisation, than socialist organisation.
Call me a class reductionist, call me a positivist, I don't care. We've been too lenient on anti-scientific rubbish for too long
It's been a long couple days for me and I haven't been able to read through this yet. Thanks for taking the time to type out this reply, I'll definitely get to it in the next day or two and see if I have anything to add to the conversation. From what I've read so far, you've given me some food for thought and I want to mull it over.
I agree with you on religion being very similar to liberalism, and on a personal level I see no reason to ascribe to any of it. My main concern is how many people cling to some type of faith and would feel alienated by immediate action against organized religion. That's the contradiction in my mind and my immediate reaction is to err on the side of not alienating people with strong religious beliefs, because that opens up roads for opposition, but you may have addressed that further on. I look forward to finishing reading later to see!
You make a lot of good points about religion being a vector for anti-communism and I generally feel the same way about the influence of Christian groups. The instances where I disagree tend to be exceptions to how these institutions act.
For instance, there is a religious group that lives near me that isn't well known that has formed their own commune. I've found them to be very warm and accepting people despite having some beliefs that have no scientific basis. They aren't trying to spread their religion, they are accepting and hospitable to outsiders, and they just seek to meditate in their small commune. Anecdotal, yes, but I can't deny their existence and how compatible they are in practice.
Religious institutions and beliefs along these lines, groups that don't subscribe to the toxic, patriarchal views of most religions seem rather innocuous. Can they be vectors for the spread of reactionaries? I can't argue against that. These people are surely the exception to the rule and despite their openness to discussing ML theory, I've run into plenty of other more agnostic beliefs that absolutely led to the opposite, regardless of their willingness to discuss in good faith.
I think this is something I'll need to think about more. I generally think, so long as it does not interfere with scientific thought and despite it being antithetical to it, religious beliefs can be tolerated. I won't deny that they historically have very much been harmful to our cause, but we also can't be blind to how prevalent even agnostic beliefs are and how our reactions to this can alienate people that may otherwise be allies. There are plenty of examples of comrades who are religious and this makes me think tolerance is a better path, but I can't deny that you are right, religious beliefs are rooted in idealism and can be a conflict of interest vs class consciousness. Again, I'll need to think and read on this more.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
Thank you in return. You raised an excellent point in regards to alienation, especially since it applies not just to religion, but to other idealist (or non dialectical materialist) beliefs. That's something that we'll have to address, if we are to propagate to the people. So something for me to ponder on as well. Cheers!
Completely agree, comrade. Religion is only a vector of attack to the socialist state, therefore It's in the interest of the working class to have a firm grip on it and eventually get rid of it. I can't see a world where socialism/communism and religion can peacefully co-exist.
I don't like being explicitly antitheist because many people haven't dealt with their internal contradictions and being obnoxious about it can push them away from marxism, but yes you are right.
Dialectical materialism and religion are mutually exclusive, the laws of the world are knowable and whatever we don't know we eventually will, filling the gaps with religion is simply un-materialistic.
Most left-wing people who find themselves incompatible with whatever religion they were raised as just become atheists. To become a pagan, you would need that incompatibility but also have a need for spirituality, and you would need to find a pagan tradition you could take more seriously than some other established religious tradition, and you would need to feel that you weren't appropriating that tradition.
a lot of westerners love their vikings, cuz warrior culture, raiding and pillaging etc. etc. nonsense.
doesnt help that nazis loved the symbols.
fun fact though, there are no nazis in valhalla
Might I suggest our Lady and Protector Inanna? Sumerians had the right idea.
I practice a weird amalgamation of Christianity, Chinese Folk Religion and Buddhism. From my experience many pagans are not right wing at all, but most pagans are quiet and don't rant and rave like the loser nazis do. They quietly practice their beliefs, maybe with a small group and mind their own fucking business.
Does Chinese folk religion count as paganism? It's the belief in several gods, or a pantheon, that constitutes a pagan religion. Its confusing what counts and doesn't, but It's likely because "paganism" is a European term which only really fits for their dichotomy of "one god versus many gods".
Pagan in its simplest form means not christian. That's the basis of the word and the basis that is still used today. Yes there's neopagan and all kinds of new ways the term gets thrown around, but not christian is the essence of the word.
They don't.
My first experience of paganism was from a youth director who practiced Wicca in addition to Christianity, and also taught us about the Gnostic Gospels. My second experience of paganism was from a black girl who was a cosplayer, a hardcore Whovian, and had major ADHD. The local pagan group is remarkably progressive.
Most pagans in the West are left-leaning, I'd say. It's just an insufferable small minority that are reactionary.
i feel you, once i met a romani that used religion as a tool for revisionism, she said that she talked to a spirit and it revealed to her that slavery wasn't a big deal, wasn't cruel or anything.
I'm atheist but i couldn't spit religious intolerance, since i didn't read much about mediums and religious with that, so i didn't knew what to respond
fixed, also, honest question, can romani be used only for the religion? the person in question is a regular brazilian and partakes in romani beliefs
Honestly sounds like they're just a scammer, or someone using a foreign religion as a smokescreen for their own reprehensible beliefs.
Religion is one thing, but people who say that they can speak to dead spirits or speak directly with any god are either scammers, or very mentally ill.
some point i found a comrade that practiced umbanda, he said there are spirits that takes joy in fooling people, like this one saying that slavery was chill
I can relate. I'm looking into magic (more the secular occult kind) because my gf is pagan, and this New Age stuff has been an underlying culture in my family and friend group. The community is very liberal where it isn't overtly fascist.
Thankfully there's plenty of Leftist (if not exactly communist) pagans and magicians out there. You just kinda gotta fish for them.
I'm learning myself since about the pandemic, but I'm basically constantly doing cleansing, manifestation, protection, and ancestral rituals to honor my loved one and family members who have passed on as well as God and a deity I show respect too.
I was raised Catholic and I still apply those influences to my spiritualism.
I still haven't found a spirituality that suits me, but I'm glad to hear that you have. I honestly wish there were more spiritual comrades around. Obviously we're materialists where it matters, but some comrades can be a little dismissive of the mystical and spiritual even when it's not being used to influence policies.
I'm Central American I went towards my roots, maybe there's something you can find within your background and if there isn't one do your best to trace what you can somewhere.
You can still make it your own thing, I personalize it completely to me. So even if you just wanna write some affirmations on a brown paper bad and burn it, all that matters is the intention you put into it that's the key
Astrology can have a huge help too
I think what OP means is that right wingers have infiltrated the “trad” spaces of people who wish to frolic in wheat fields, pray to druids, bake bread for their family, wear sundresses, and be a stay at home parent to care for many children.
All of those things are perfectly fine, but the aesthetics have been infiltrated and corrupted by Nazis and right wingers.
Im going to carve a hammer and sickle into every smalll animal bone that i find
Mysticism and idealism in short, though imo animism-type practices mirrors a 'low-tech' materialism in its approach to the natural world, so there is room in it for the left and there should be plenty though they may not have the political framework so to speak. That's how it be for most things, the culture at large has a lot of influence on subcultures and the people within it, we don't exist in vacuums.
There will be no progress until the last temple will be converted to a library or lecture hall.
I'm Central American, not normal in my cultural roots to openly have an altar and be into santería but here I am and I'm very spiritual I would love if we had an active sub community for this!! Also love astrology and tarot
Lol I've already done this here and got a huge flak for it once. We are all different not a monolith
Soooooo deal with it 😎
