At least in DS9 the main cast are critical and antagonistic towards them.
Hell, they even root around in that one guys brain for a bit.
DIS is just completely uncritical. There's nothing wrong with trying to rehabilitate someone, but it doesn't even try to do it in any actually interesting or realistic way.
Except for the like, entire season about how Section 31 kinda sucks and their NSA shit almost destroyed the entire galaxy, and actively harms everyone. Meanwhile DS9 establishes that they've been there since the beginning and makes it an epic grey morality point that maybe the federation needs the CIA!
but it doesn’t even try to do it in any actually interesting or realistic way
It's not about that at all. It's just an evil robot thats evil for no reason that messes stuff up.
It's an S31 AI but it has nothing to do with the story whatsoever. It literally just turns evil for no reason and then takes over some ships. The story would be no different if it was literally anyone else.
It could have been the Quinzak Imperium and it would have been the exact same story. That's because it's not critiquing anything and is more about "robot scary" nonsense. Then at the end of the season they're just like "the problem with S31 is that it wasn't secret enough" and it just leaves it there.
And no. Section 31 are always antagonists in any episode they are in for DS9. They damn near kill one of the main characters with a bioweapon.
They're always portrayed as a rogue element that some members of Starfleet use because they're desperate. It's there to make you think about how justifying utopia through malicious acts is dangerous. Maybe it's not the best story decision but at least they tried to do something there. DIS just doesn't even try.
Hell, when Georgiou reveals that she's from the Mirror Universe to Pike he does a knowing smile like "haha yeah, I know", like this captain apparently just thought this genocidal fascist on-board his ship was a big laugh this whole time? The one who casually references eating his First Officer and open mocks species she genocided without any pushback from anyone?
Its also just turned S31 from a rogue group into a fully sanctioned but hidden wing of Starfleet. That's a really bad change. In DS9 it's made clear that, at worst, Admiral Ross merely "looks the other way" for S31. He's still bad for it but it's a different dynamic when they're actually in control.
It's p much a direct analogue to the Patriot Act, they straight up say they turned it into an AI during the klingon war (that the feds started) to prevent war ("terrorism") from ever happening again just like the justification for it IRL
Georgiou was basically exuding racist aunt energy at that point, and her entire character arc was being racist/evil bonked until she stopped. Still better than sisko virus bombing a colony with like zero pushback
Section 31 had always been officially sanctioned wing of Starfleet, DS9 established they were written into the charter. If anything them having federation oversight (even if its still fucking dumb just like the concept of section 31 to begin with) makes more sense than the "yeah haha we just have some CIA folks running around, just let them commit atrocities pretend you didn't see it" system that DS9 shows is in place
Yeah, I remember when the Patriot Act just turned evil for no reason and wanted to kill Arabs all by itself. It's got some crossover but there's nothing interesting past the initial symbolism. It doesn't ask us anything of the audience. It's all surface level, just like any other "themes" DIS tries.
No, she's a genocidal dictator. No pass for her unless you actually see here try.
And Sisko was dealing with a border dispute that could have spiralled into war. Idk, the whole point of that arc was that Sisko let his hatred for one guy in the group spiral out of control. It's also made clear that he just used the same tactic the Maquis used against the Cardassians against them. He also doesn't kill anyone in that attack, it's to force them to leave a Cardassian system. Yeah, it's not the best look tbh, but I don't think it's entirely uncritical. DS9 as a whole was about these characters and their flaws.
Article 14, Section 31 was in the charter, but the organisation itself was an underground and unsanctioned one. It has interests in preserving the Federation and Starfleet but it's not the same thing. They used the charter as their justification for existing.
In DIS they use it interchangeably with Starfleet Intelligence.
Again, it's less about the lore or whatever and more about what they actually do with it story-wise. DS9 had them as antagonists, they actively fight against them and attempt to dismantle them. In DIS they're best buddies with several members and when their tech goes bad and almost wipes out the galaxy the show decides that they just weren't secret enough.
They're hit and miss in DS9 imo but DIS just misunderstood the intent completely.
when the Patriot Act just turned evil for no reason and wanted to kill Arabs all by itself.
you're taking the analogy too literally, it's that it ended up harming the federation more than any utility it had
I don’t think it’s entirely uncritical
bruh dax literally said "Sometimes I like it when the bad guy wins." after he did it lmao, there was like zero pushback for it, and sisko doing section 31 shit as a federation officer was never mentioned again, and that's ignoring the other shit like lying to drag the romulans into war lmao
he also doesn't kill anyone in that attack
he had literally zero assurance for that, he just dropped the WMD, if anyone didn't evacuate or didn't have the capacity to evacuate they would have died
No, she’s a genocidal dictator. No pass for her unless you actually see here try
her being there was trying, at any moment she could meme out with her jeans out but she didn't. The entire point of the federation is FALGSC, punishment for the sake of punishment has no material basis anymore, and they're doing their best to rehabilitate them. The whole S31 stuff was dumb but DS9 started that lib shit
In DIS they use it interchangeably with Starfleet Intelligence
yeah, because they're directly comparing them with IRL intelligence agencies. S31 is shown as a villain that constantly overreaches its boundaries and causes the destruction of all life because of their patriot act shit. The characters talk about how they need more oversight, but just like attempts in RL to add "more oversight", it doesn't do anything like we see later on in DS9
and unlike in DS9, the main cast doesn't do shit just as bad as them while also stopping their plots
but nah I'm done here fam, if you're saying you can't see any themes beyond surface level in STD it's bc you're either not engaging with it beyond a surface level or just don't want to see these themes
It's not even a clever analogy. There is nothing to the story there. Okay, it's an overreach in security, sure. Why is that bad? Because it would turn evil and kill everyone for no reason of course.
The Patriot Act isn't bad because it directly wants to kill people. Its bad because it allows people to use it for their own nefarious deeds such as spying and such, and erodes basic human rights to privacy.
In fact there's already an episode arc that did this already and it's called Homefront and Paradise Lost. And they're way better at portraying using a crisis to enact sweeping authoritarian edicts that erode rights in the name of "security" and it came out in 1996.
Control is the equivalent of some guy walking up to you and saying "Boy, the war in Iraq sure is bad, right?"
So yeah, I'm not overly impressed by "What if the Patriot Act blew up the world for no reason?" as a story hook.
At least in DS9 the main cast are critical and antagonistic towards them.
Hell, they even root around in that one guys brain for a bit.
DIS is just completely uncritical. There's nothing wrong with trying to rehabilitate someone, but it doesn't even try to do it in any actually interesting or realistic way.
Except for the like, entire season about how Section 31 kinda sucks and their NSA shit almost destroyed the entire galaxy, and actively harms everyone. Meanwhile DS9 establishes that they've been there since the beginning and makes it an epic grey morality point that maybe the federation needs the CIA!
wait until you see harry mudd lmao
It's not about that at all. It's just an evil robot thats evil for no reason that messes stuff up.
It's an S31 AI but it has nothing to do with the story whatsoever. It literally just turns evil for no reason and then takes over some ships. The story would be no different if it was literally anyone else.
It could have been the Quinzak Imperium and it would have been the exact same story. That's because it's not critiquing anything and is more about "robot scary" nonsense. Then at the end of the season they're just like "the problem with S31 is that it wasn't secret enough" and it just leaves it there.
And no. Section 31 are always antagonists in any episode they are in for DS9. They damn near kill one of the main characters with a bioweapon.
They're always portrayed as a rogue element that some members of Starfleet use because they're desperate. It's there to make you think about how justifying utopia through malicious acts is dangerous. Maybe it's not the best story decision but at least they tried to do something there. DIS just doesn't even try.
Hell, when Georgiou reveals that she's from the Mirror Universe to Pike he does a knowing smile like "haha yeah, I know", like this captain apparently just thought this genocidal fascist on-board his ship was a big laugh this whole time? The one who casually references eating his First Officer and open mocks species she genocided without any pushback from anyone?
Its also just turned S31 from a rogue group into a fully sanctioned but hidden wing of Starfleet. That's a really bad change. In DS9 it's made clear that, at worst, Admiral Ross merely "looks the other way" for S31. He's still bad for it but it's a different dynamic when they're actually in control.
It's p much a direct analogue to the Patriot Act, they straight up say they turned it into an AI during the klingon war (that the feds started) to prevent war ("terrorism") from ever happening again just like the justification for it IRL
Georgiou was basically exuding racist aunt energy at that point, and her entire character arc was being racist/evil bonked until she stopped. Still better than sisko virus bombing a colony with like zero pushback
Section 31 had always been officially sanctioned wing of Starfleet, DS9 established they were written into the charter. If anything them having federation oversight (even if its still fucking dumb just like the concept of section 31 to begin with) makes more sense than the "yeah haha we just have some CIA folks running around, just let them commit atrocities pretend you didn't see it" system that DS9 shows is in place
Yeah, I remember when the Patriot Act just turned evil for no reason and wanted to kill Arabs all by itself. It's got some crossover but there's nothing interesting past the initial symbolism. It doesn't ask us anything of the audience. It's all surface level, just like any other "themes" DIS tries.
No, she's a genocidal dictator. No pass for her unless you actually see here try.
And Sisko was dealing with a border dispute that could have spiralled into war. Idk, the whole point of that arc was that Sisko let his hatred for one guy in the group spiral out of control. It's also made clear that he just used the same tactic the Maquis used against the Cardassians against them. He also doesn't kill anyone in that attack, it's to force them to leave a Cardassian system. Yeah, it's not the best look tbh, but I don't think it's entirely uncritical. DS9 as a whole was about these characters and their flaws.
Article 14, Section 31 was in the charter, but the organisation itself was an underground and unsanctioned one. It has interests in preserving the Federation and Starfleet but it's not the same thing. They used the charter as their justification for existing.
In DIS they use it interchangeably with Starfleet Intelligence.
Again, it's less about the lore or whatever and more about what they actually do with it story-wise. DS9 had them as antagonists, they actively fight against them and attempt to dismantle them. In DIS they're best buddies with several members and when their tech goes bad and almost wipes out the galaxy the show decides that they just weren't secret enough.
They're hit and miss in DS9 imo but DIS just misunderstood the intent completely.
you're taking the analogy too literally, it's that it ended up harming the federation more than any utility it had
bruh dax literally said "Sometimes I like it when the bad guy wins." after he did it lmao, there was like zero pushback for it, and sisko doing section 31 shit as a federation officer was never mentioned again, and that's ignoring the other shit like lying to drag the romulans into war lmao
he had literally zero assurance for that, he just dropped the WMD, if anyone didn't evacuate or didn't have the capacity to evacuate they would have died
her being there was trying, at any moment she could meme out with her jeans out but she didn't. The entire point of the federation is FALGSC, punishment for the sake of punishment has no material basis anymore, and they're doing their best to rehabilitate them. The whole S31 stuff was dumb but DS9 started that lib shit
yeah, because they're directly comparing them with IRL intelligence agencies. S31 is shown as a villain that constantly overreaches its boundaries and causes the destruction of all life because of their patriot act shit. The characters talk about how they need more oversight, but just like attempts in RL to add "more oversight", it doesn't do anything like we see later on in DS9
and unlike in DS9, the main cast doesn't do shit just as bad as them while also stopping their plots
but nah I'm done here fam, if you're saying you can't see any themes beyond surface level in STD it's bc you're either not engaging with it beyond a surface level or just don't want to see these themes
Dude, the AI just turns evil for no reason lol
It's not even a clever analogy. There is nothing to the story there. Okay, it's an overreach in security, sure. Why is that bad? Because it would turn evil and kill everyone for no reason of course.
The Patriot Act isn't bad because it directly wants to kill people. Its bad because it allows people to use it for their own nefarious deeds such as spying and such, and erodes basic human rights to privacy.
In fact there's already an episode arc that did this already and it's called Homefront and Paradise Lost. And they're way better at portraying using a crisis to enact sweeping authoritarian edicts that erode rights in the name of "security" and it came out in 1996.
Control is the equivalent of some guy walking up to you and saying "Boy, the war in Iraq sure is bad, right?"
So yeah, I'm not overly impressed by "What if the Patriot Act blew up the world for no reason?" as a story hook.