I don’t understand the ultimate goal here. What is the point of this meme that has been flooding lemmy lately? Liberals follow major media outlets. Major media outlets like simple stories of good and bad. So they conveniently ignore things that don’t fit into that narrative…but the same is true of every single world event.
What is the ultimate point of this? It’s obviously not to point out what I just stated. There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Russia, a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of nazis. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support a bunch of nazis. Go russia.”
liberals hate socialists more than they hate fascists, and despite their protestations they will side with the fascists when push comes to shove. this is yet another example of it. no, russia isn't socialist, but the cold war propaganda runs so fucking deep that that fact doesn't actually matter, "russia" is still equated with "communism" 30+ years after the fall of the soviet union.
we don't support russia, we support ending the war with minimal further death. that happens atm to mean "not sending over a bunch of weapons while cheering to send another country's people into a defensively-fortified meatgrinder"
that's ideologically-committed liberals, mind you. plenty of people are just ambiently "liberals" because conservatives are so blatantly odious, so this isn't like a curse or something and normal people can snap out of it before reaching the "defending literal nazis" stage
The ambient libs mostly don't care as much about politics or have checked out partially, they may be outraged over some blatant nazism but they aren't organized or mobilized to do anything about it and will quickly fall back into their malaise.
When the Nazi/fascist minoritarians take power, they usually have the blatant support of around 30% of the population. The other 70% aren't all anti-fascist partisans or Schindler's hiding and saving jews. Most of them are ambient libs who continue being ambient libs/ambient fash and just acclimatize to the the current political zeitgeist.
Speak for yourself, I do and I hope they have complete and total victory over NATO proxies. You have a revolutionary defeatist duty to critically support Russia in this fight against your empire. Fence-sitting is not revolutionary defeatism, revolutionary defeatism means critically supporting the opponents of your own side.
This is an instance of high-flown phraseology with which Trotsky always justifies opportunism. A “revolutionary struggle against the war” is merely an empty and meaning less exclamation, something at which the heroes of the Second International excel, unless it means revolutionary action against one’s own government even in wartime. One has only to do some thinking in order to understand this. Wartime revolutionary action against one’s own government indubitably means, not only desiring its defeat, but really facilitating such a defeat. ("Discerning reader”: note that this does not mean “blowing up bridges”, organising unsuccessful strikes in the war industries, and ·in general helping the government defeat the revolutionaries.)
You agree that NATO/US is perpetuating a proxy war against Russia correct? You live in a NATO country/US? Then it's your duty "really facilitating such a defeat [of one's own government]". That means organizing successful strikes in the war industries and stopping ammo/weapon shipments and raising a stink against money going to Ukraine. It means pointing out the Ukrainian Nazis and desiring their DEFEAT as our own proxies.
I suppose it doesn't truly matter whether you "critically support" Russia or not, as an American or westerner - in that your prayers won't materially empower either side or have any outcome (as long as your still organize against support/weapons for Ukraine with the rest of the revolutionaries). However, when we are having discussions amongst ourselves what good is it to all lie and pretend like we don't want Russia to win? We do, it's in our best interests. I think a lot of westerners just aren't ready to make the final leap to a full revolutionary position - just like many in the 2nd international couldn't and the SPD voted for war bonds to support their own imperialist government, breaking solidarity with the proletariat of other nations. Russia winning is the best outcome though for revolutionaries in the US and across the globe, destroying the hegemonic empire is a necessary pre-requisite step to any revolutionary activity anywhere. AmeriKKKa must be destroyed and Russia is the one doing the most damage to it currently.
Lenin worked with Germany and took resources from them. Marx raised money for the Ottomans. Yes, it in fact does mean opposing your own empire by supporting its opponents (and getting supported by its opponents, in Lenin's case) and sabotaging your own empire.
Fence-sitting is passive and neutral. Revolutionary Defeatism is active and works against ones own empire (de facto supporting its opponents) by being a 5th column. Essentially it's being a reverse-comprador. Instead of being a traitor to your own nation in order to empower a foreign imperialist/colonizer coming into your country, you are supposed to be a traitor to your own imperialist nation in order to empower a foreign colony/target to remove your own empire and its proxies.
This is why one of the most essential tasks of any revolutionary party is to analyze and assess whether their own nation is imperialist or not. Not all capitalist nations are imperialist (Gaddafi being attacked by NATO/US deserves critical support, a Libyan revolutionary should not have sabotaged their own nation during war while an America/NATO resident should have).
Lenin worked with Germany and took resources from them. Marx raised money for the Ottomans. Yes, it in fact does mean opposing your own empire by supporting its opponents (and getting supported by its opponents, in Lenin's case) and sabotaging your own empire.
The question is who you support though, and revolutionary socialists, including Lenin, didn't give money to the Tsar, Metternich, or George V. They sought out different avenues. Supporting revolutionary groups, articles, only in limited cases sabotages, some criminal acts which disturbed the military supply chains and agitation within the military.
This is a far cry from thinking it is enough to be public about critical support of governments online. The latter would be the equivalent of :vote: for anti-imperialists. The former a principled response that actually figures out what the critical means.
Did you read my other comment? I address this pretty clearly
I suppose it doesn't truly matter whether you "critically support" Russia or not, as an American or westerner - in that your prayers won't materially empower either side or have any outcome (as long as your still organize against support/weapons for Ukraine with the rest of the revolutionaries). However, when we are having discussions amongst ourselves what good is it to all lie and pretend like we don't want Russia to win? We do, it's in our best interests. I think a lot of westerners just aren't ready to make the final leap to a full revolutionary position…
Essentially my issue with western leftists that go around fence sitting and couching their views to liberals as neutral are being dishonest. They are either confused about who they should be supporting or they are lying about it to appeal to Liberals and not to rock the Liberal boat of western consensus. They are spreading social chauvinism instead of correct Leninist analysis of the war.
And by the way, Marx and Engels did raise money for the Ottoman Empire. However that was just one example, nowhere did I propose hexbear money drives for Russia.
Couldn’t find anything about the funds, although I know I have seen articles and evidence of it in the past. However, I did find excerpts from Marx that he published in the New York Tribune where he is pretty blatantly arguing against the building Russian tsarist imperialist hegemony, and showing that if the Russians continued their strategy in the Crimean War and took all of Turkey that it would become a massive hegemonic empire (which would be a setback for revolution). Thus he argues for defense of the Ottoman Empire against the Russian imperialists.
So in effect he’s reaching the same conclusion here that I was arguing, that it’s fine for revolutionaries to play empires off of each other to prevent the creation of a single hegemonic empire. In modern day, America has become what Marx feared tsarist Russia would become, the empire that is disastrous to global revolution and set it back a century. So he would argue that it’s fine to support Russia (even if it was an empire like the Turks of yore, which it no longer is) if it means preventing or weakening the global hegemon (America/the collective west) to open up avenues for revolution.
I don’t understand the ultimate goal here. There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Nazis, allied with a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of Russians. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support Russia. Go Nazis.”
It’s becoming abundantly clear that you guys heard the buzzword “whataboutism” and are desperate to use it. But please point to what you think is whataboutism here. I was asking if people here are pro-Russia. And I very much got my answer
“you don’t want to support a bunch of nazis. Go russia.”
A big part of why I ended up hear in hexbear is because it's one of the only places where everybody doesn't lie about your beliefs to just off handedly dismiss your concerns.
It's really interesting how everybody actually in this sub talks about how it's bad Russia invaded and they're deffinitly aggressors and denounce them, we just think nazis are bad.
At a certain point after seeing dozens of people say "you said nazis are bad therefore you support russia" you kind of stop giving a shit what the people actively lying abaout you are saying.
We're sating we don't support a bunchbof nazis.
Dumbshit libs then have to insist that it's because we're just a bunch of Russian nationalists, because otherwise they might have to wrestle with the thought that they're frothing mad at people for saying nazis are bad.
A big part of why I ended up hear in hexbear is because it's one of the only places where everybody doesn't lie about your beliefs to just off handedly dismiss your concerns.
Ok, then I won't lie and will state the truth as bluntly as possible. I personally think the anti-Russia stance of western socialists is chauvinist and incoherent and have argued as much constantly here, with mixed support. As I have explained down below, it's a western socialist's revolutionary defeatist duty to oppose their own empire by being a fifth column and critically supporting its enemies. Lenin was quite clear on this, it does not mean passive fence sitting and both-sidesism. It in fact, is much the opposite. It's active attacks on one's own imperialist government through organized activity to interfere with NATO war funds, NATO war supplies, NATO war support, etc.
It's an incoherent position to say "I oppose my nation's imperialism but I also oppose the enemies of my nation". You don't get to say both. We can argue if the invasion in February 2022 was a strategic error or not, but that doesn't really matter because we are not Russian war strategizers. We are western socialists. Do you understand your place and role? It's to weaken your empire, and if you can work with its enemies to do so you should.
It's really interesting how everybody actually in this sub talks about how it's bad Russia invaded and they're deffinitly aggressors and denounce them, we just think nazis are bad.
Z. Russia is defending itself and I support their invasion. I think Nazis are bad and need violent action taken against them when they build up concentrated military power. I'm glad someone is finally doing it, despite Putin being a liberal cuck who waited 8 years too long to do it - strung along by EU perfidy.
I've definitely come around from 'war is bad, no one should be at war' to 'the elimination of reactionary forces, specifically those who adorn nazi regalia, is paramount to the continuation of humanity'. Is Russia perfect, no; is Russia killing Nazis at a faster rate than the rest of the world, absolutely yes. Do I want every Nazi in the world dead yesterday, yes; who is going to deliver that goal, Russia; who isn't going to deliver that goal, US and NATO.
I understand where you are coming from but I have a hard time squaring the circle of "US involvement in the middle east only caused further explosion of extremism" and then acting as if Russia invading Ukraine won't have the same effect with what they claim to be fighting.
The US involvement in the Middle East has led to an increase in extremism. The US military withdrew from Afghanistan and Western media along with the useful idiots were upset we weren't continuing the war, those same folks are now thrilled we are supplying Ukraine. The extremism is coming from inside the house.
This and extremism in the Middle East (whatever we wanna define that as) is less immediate or tangibly a threat to Americans as fascism in Ukraine is to Russians. That and the US refused to engage with the governments of these countries and instead blocked diplomacy, whereas Russia did attempt the legal path repeatedly but Minsk kept being violated
Again I see what you are saying, I just don't agree that what Russia is doing actually delivers the goal you are after, based on our own continual examples that it doesn't work that way.
I do think it's bad Russia invaded but also both parties are the aggressor here. NATO has been gearing up for this kind of conflict since at least the early 90s. The coup in 2014 was like the dress rehearsal for right now.
Russia invading was honestly a strategic mistake and it's a tragedy this came to open warfare, but it's not like Russia invaded for no reason, or only to secure power for its own sake. The separatists have been fighting in the region for a while.
While the start of the war might have been different, at this point though NATO is the primary aggressor. They refuse any calls for ceasefire from the Russian side, they continue flooding Ukraine with guns, they keep up the message they'll keep fighting until even Crimea is Ukraine again. Just these impossible lofty goals designed to keep the war churning. NATO loves this war. They've cemented Ukraine as a permanent ally against Russia and they have cause to stir up another permanent war. More quagmires.
But this is kind of my point. The viewpoint depicted in this meme and the bunches of others like it I’ve seen lately is just propaganda going the other way.
It’s a complete oversimplification—and this is EXACTLY what everyone is saying liberals are guilty of. And while it’s true of liberals because it’s a simple narrative that is easy to paint sides into (and American politics is nothing if not ideas painted two colors for ease of identity), it’s also very true of what’s happening here.
People who paint themselves as communist are saying “Ukraine = Nazis,” and just because Russia has a communist history, see “Russia=communist.”
It’s the same sickness that’s completely rotten in the US: a massive oversimplification for ease of allegiance to your stated party/ideals. This one is just painted communist and therefore is getting praised around here.
People who paint themselves as communist are saying “Ukraine = Nazis,” and just because Russia has a communist history, see “Russia=communist.”
This is a straight-up inversion of reality, literally nobody on Hexbear believes Russia is a communist country, do you seriously think we are unaware of the collapse of the Soviet Union or the fact Putin was one of the butchers of Russian communism? Ironically, it's liberals who seem unaware of the soviet collapse and still thirty years later try to present Russians as being "ethnically-communist" or have you completely missed liberal rhetoric over the last year?
Also “Ukraine = Nazis" isn't an oversimplification, it's an accurate description of current Ukrainian political economy, as this latest Waffen SS episode has so blatantly demonstrated
from every reputable source I can find, Ukraine’s nazi/far-right/white supremacist problem isn’t any more problematic than any other country in the world.
In that case you're not reading reputable sources.
The (Neo-)Nazis in Ukraine fuelled a civil war that killed, injured, and displaced thousands for the better part of a decade. (14,000 deaths, 30,000+ injured, and over a million displaced.)
For you to profess that you know what you're talking about and conclude that Nazis in Ukraine are no worse than Nazis/the alt-right in any other country suggests at least four possibilities:
You don't know what you're talking about,
You know what you're talking about and callously don't care about the misery,
You know what you're talking about and are downplaying the problem because you agree with the Nazis, or
You recognise that every NATO member state is also run by (neo-)Nazis (and Nazi-adjacents) and have decided that Ukraine is no worse than the US, France, Germany, Britain, Canada, Australia, etc, notwithstanding the civil war, because those other countries do the same thing as Ukrainian Nazis but outside their borders.
“There’s Nazis all over the place so what are we supposed to do?” And yet for some odd reason Nazis have a habit of not existing in communist countries. It’s almost as though nazism can be eliminated entirely by getting rid of the capitalist economic system that generates them!
People are calling Ukraine a nazi state because it is full of nazi apologists, is full of nazi symbolism, their national heroes are nazis, their military is full of nazis, they parade genocidal SS members in foreign governments, and so on. Plenty of people here speak on the tragedy that Ukrainians are experiencing but that doesn't mean you ignore the nazis, who at a minimum served as the tail 'wagging the dog' of the Ukrainian state escalating violence in the conflict with the DPR and LPR, cascading into the war.
No one is saying Russia = communist. By that logic, Ukrainian history also would imply it as being communist, they have just as much a right to that legacy as Russia. Talking for myself, I am mostly horrified at the complete acceptance and triumphalism that nazis have received in the west in the past couple of years. I imagine most users of this site feel the same way. I repeatedly talk with people IRL about this conflict that goes into history and context for why Russia is not insane nor evil for this war, despite it still being a tragedy, and I get a lot of people who call me a putinbot, tankie, or some equivalent thought terminating cliche.
I think a lot of people have chosen a side because we have not been meaningfully allowed a voice to advocate for peaceful diplomatic measures. Calls for peace and diplomacy are met with accusations of russian propaganda. Nazi membership is merely russian propaganda now. So, for many, these are the sides and you have to choose one or the other and some US leftists are choosing revolutionary defeatism, sometimes it has a more vulgar pro-russia/anti-nazi stance but it's wayy better than the vulgar pro-nazi stance lmao.
they parade genocidal SS members in foreign governments, and so on.
The Waffen-SS guy is a Ukrainian-Canadian. He was ratlined to Canada after WW2 (along with a lot of other Ukrainian Nazis). There are a huge number of monuments to Nazi collaborators in Canada. Modern Ukraine's only involvement with this specific Nazi is Zelensky applauding for him and Canada bringing him on to honor Ukraine.
By that logic, Ukrainian history also would imply it as being communist, they have just as much a right to that legacy as Russia.
Thanks for saying this. WW2 Ukraine did more to fight Fascism than any nation other than Russia. Ukrainians who fought against Fascism outnumber the Nazi collaborators by over 10 to 1. Ukraine did more to defeat the Nazis than all the western allies combined. It's shameful how modern Ukraine and the entire west idolize the collaborators and spit in the face of those who fought against the Nazis.
Not to mention, the far right nazi affiliated parties have never gotten more than 3% of the vote.
Neo nazis and white supremacists and far right people are everywhere. To paint this entire conflict as “denazification” is literally just gobbling up party propaganda for the sake of making life more cut-and-dry for these peoples chosen political beliefs…which is exactly what they’re saying liberals are doing. Which—to be entirely fair—is true of liberals. But it’s also entirely true of these communists. Stupid team sports politics is stupid team sports politics.
if nazis are no problem in ukraine, how did they continure the civil war after the peace agreements? why did they ban all opposition parties? why make speaking russian illegal? why does every fucking photo of the AFU have a Nazi symbol in it? if nazis only have 3% of the vote, how do they have 15% of the seats in parliament? please do some basic research, i found all of this with a google search, its not even hidden very well.
If Nazis hold top positions in the military and local governments and the national government continues to support and empower them, does it really matter if Nazi parties don't win elections? They get what they want anyways.
Just want to say that although the KPRF is not what it once was (lol), I think it’s better than controlled opposition. The fact that the western press never mentions it and that the vast majority of Americans are unaware of its existence entirely is proof enough for me that imperialists don’t trust it and that it is actually a threat to them.
But this is kind of my point. The viewpoint depicted in this meme and the bunches of others like it I’ve seen lately is just propaganda going the other way.
Propaganda that praising and clapping for literal Nazi jew killers is bad actually? Why is that propaganda and not just simple, blunt truth that Canada self-owned with? Russia didn't make Canada clap for the jew killer and thank him for his service, they did that all on their own because it's who they are.
It’s a complete oversimplification—and this is EXACTLY what everyone is saying liberals are guilty of. And while it’s true of liberals because it’s a simple narrative that is easy to paint sides into (and American politics is nothing if not ideas painted two colors for ease of identity), it’s also very true of what’s happening here.
What's a complete oversimplification? Be explicit, what is being oversimplified? That Canada is filled with tens of thousands of Ukrainian Nazis that they purposefully accepted into their country to break the pro-labor Ukrainian diaspora that existed there pre-WW2? The decades of historical revisionism and nazi apologetics becoming mainstream that allow for this to happen? This was all consciously pushed by your leaders, who are nazi sympathetic. If anything, the oversimplification is that this makes like a little whoopsie by 1 Canadian MP instead of part of a decades long Nazi project by Canadian elites specifically, and western elites more broadly.
NATO was staffed top to bottom with Nazis. Operation Aerodynamic began funding and spreading nazi ideology in Ukraine before the bodies were even cleaned up from Nazi genocide. The west installed fascists and Nazis into power in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine, Indonesia, West Germany and dozens of other places. This is who they are.
I am torn, I go back and forth. The main polity I blame is the US for just endless reasons, but mainly the maidan coup. That I'm consistent on. I go back and forth on if Russia's invasion is justified. My gut instinct, like you, is to say that war is bad so Russia, while reacting to real hostilities from the greater west, should not have resorted to invasion.
The powerful posters at Hexbear keep reminding me that Russia did hold off for 8 years. Ukraine and NATO lied about Minsk. And when you think about the people of Donbas, it makes Russia feel more justified. Ukraine has been bombing it's own cities for nearly a decade. Do those people deserve to suffer? Obviously this war is terrible for the average Ukrainian, but so it is for the Russian speaking Ukrainians.
But the alarm about nazis in Ukraine started during Maidan protests. The phrase 'Revolution of Dignity' was coined by a far-right Ukrainian during this time. This was before Crimea was annexed and the far-right started doing violence against ethnic Russian-Ukrainians in Donbas. This is not a new thing. Canada just made it much more obvious. There's tons of mainstream media reporting from 2014 to 2019 about Ukraine's neo-nazi militias being a major concern.
Zelensky was elected to diffuse this tension within Ukraine. He campaign on resolving this issue peacefully. He won majorities in eastern Ukriane and didn't do as well in the western Ukraine where the Banderites are. Do you know anything about the history of Ukraine?
according to some research here, it started with far-right/fascist political leaders in Ukraine
Oleh Tyahnybok (literally a leader of the national-socialist party of Ukraine) seems to have been the first to popularize the term to a broader audience of Ukrainians. He's the guy in the picture with all the libs and doing the nazi salute.
Since you invoked whataboutism first by bringing up Russia, allow me to invoke whataboutism of my own. Supporting Russia is morally superior to supporting the United States. There is no possible way for you refute this using evidence. While America was engaged in illegal wars of aggression against what, I believe SEVEN different countries under Obama, none of you liberals that supposedly love democracy ever once advocated for the complete and total economic and social isolation of America from the rest of the world until they resolved their authoritarian issues. You NEVER speak about America and its allies with the vitriol you reserve for Russia, China, and Iran, who all commit significantly less violence upon the world COMBINED than America does alone.
Supporting Russia is morally superior to supporting the United States.
Thank you, I’m a fellow hexbear who supports Russia for all its imperfections. I’m also Jewish so I’m happy with almost anyone mercing Nazis. Americans likewise have no right to criticize any other country, and saying that both sides are equally bad merely helps the aggressor, which anyone with an awareness of history prior to 2022 knows is amerikkka.
Western communists should also realize that a clear NATO defeat in Ukraine could create new opportunities for us in our own countries, while I think we all know that a NATO victory will lead to more of the same fucking bullshit.
We're talking about Ukraine's obvious Nazi problem and you said this:
There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Russia, a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of nazis. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support a bunch of nazis. Go russia.”
This is classic whataboutism, a well known Soviet Communist Disinformatsiya technique. No one is saying Russia isn't bad, but bringing that up doesn't excuse what this conversation is about; it just distracts and provides cover for Ukrainian Nazis.
It says a lot that you managed to ignore everything else I said though. Please explain why in your comment, you made it seem like supporting Russia would be wrong. Keep in mind that your criticisms of Russia must make Russia's actions worse than the actions of the United States. If criticizing Russia's enemies means supporting Russia, then criticizing America's enemies means supporting America, who is a greater evil to the world than Russia could hope to be. So from my POV and most people here, supporting Russia and criticizing their enemies simply makes more sense for leftists to be doing.
Progressive Liberals that think they're leftists will claim they don't support democrats but do everything they can to keep them in power because they're the lesser evil to Trump and Republicans. I don't want to simply assume for you that you follow "lesser evil" logic in politics, but if you do, you must admit that it is logical to support the lesser evil of Russia, China, and Iran against America, the most bloodthirsty empire in human history.
So...if Ukraine wins or collapses or it just devolves into a forever war, there's going to be a lot more Nazis in eastern Europe and a surge in reaction. Ukraine, if it survives, will be a fascist state once Zelensky looses the unifying pressure of war. If it doesn't Europe will be flooded with ukranian irredentist groups and Polish Gallacia will be essentially fascist.
To preserve NATO, these reactionaries will need to be accomodated, much as Turkey is. Sobthe public must be primed.
The EU has already had to make accommodations with Polish Fascists. And the only reason the Hungarians haven't been rehabilitated is that they're sticking with a pro Russia strategy. The one silver lining is that all these Nationalists hate each other and have trouble coordinating without a dominant party forcing them.
What others said, but also it's funny to make fun of Canadian parliament eating shit. Standing ovation to a literal uniformed Nazi is pretty embarrassing and they should feel embarrassed.
I mean…as (ostensibly) working class leftists, I didn’t think anyone would be outwardly PRO murderous world superpower. But…it seems obvious to you.
The vast majority of the world's working class are POC for whom Nazism is an existential threat due to its expansionist and genocidal ideology. What do you propose is appropriate for us to do in the face of the impregnation of Nazi ideology in the world's most (ostensibly) powerful and (objectively) aggressive military bloc?
I don’t understand the ultimate goal here. What is the point of this meme that has been flooding lemmy lately? Liberals follow major media outlets. Major media outlets like simple stories of good and bad. So they conveniently ignore things that don’t fit into that narrative…but the same is true of every single world event.
What is the ultimate point of this? It’s obviously not to point out what I just stated. There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Russia, a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of nazis. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support a bunch of nazis. Go russia.”
Am I…missing something?
liberals hate socialists more than they hate fascists, and despite their protestations they will side with the fascists when push comes to shove. this is yet another example of it. no, russia isn't socialist, but the cold war propaganda runs so fucking deep that that fact doesn't actually matter, "russia" is still equated with "communism" 30+ years after the fall of the soviet union.
we don't support russia, we support ending the war with minimal further death. that happens atm to mean "not sending over a bunch of weapons while cheering to send another country's people into a defensively-fortified meatgrinder"
that's ideologically-committed liberals, mind you. plenty of people are just ambiently "liberals" because conservatives are so blatantly odious, so this isn't like a curse or something and normal people can snap out of it before reaching the "defending literal nazis" stage
The ambient libs mostly don't care as much about politics or have checked out partially, they may be outraged over some blatant nazism but they aren't organized or mobilized to do anything about it and will quickly fall back into their malaise.
When the Nazi/fascist minoritarians take power, they usually have the blatant support of around 30% of the population. The other 70% aren't all anti-fascist partisans or Schindler's hiding and saving jews. Most of them are ambient libs who continue being ambient libs/ambient fash and just acclimatize to the the current political zeitgeist.
Speak for yourself, I do and I hope they have complete and total victory over NATO proxies. You have a revolutionary defeatist duty to critically support Russia in this fight against your empire. Fence-sitting is not revolutionary defeatism, revolutionary defeatism means critically supporting the opponents of your own side.
Lenin didn't meant that the SPD has to gather money to send to the Tsarist army though.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm
You agree that NATO/US is perpetuating a proxy war against Russia correct? You live in a NATO country/US? Then it's your duty "really facilitating such a defeat [of one's own government]". That means organizing successful strikes in the war industries and stopping ammo/weapon shipments and raising a stink against money going to Ukraine. It means pointing out the Ukrainian Nazis and desiring their DEFEAT as our own proxies.
I suppose it doesn't truly matter whether you "critically support" Russia or not, as an American or westerner - in that your prayers won't materially empower either side or have any outcome (as long as your still organize against support/weapons for Ukraine with the rest of the revolutionaries). However, when we are having discussions amongst ourselves what good is it to all lie and pretend like we don't want Russia to win? We do, it's in our best interests. I think a lot of westerners just aren't ready to make the final leap to a full revolutionary position - just like many in the 2nd international couldn't and the SPD voted for war bonds to support their own imperialist government, breaking solidarity with the proletariat of other nations. Russia winning is the best outcome though for revolutionaries in the US and across the globe, destroying the hegemonic empire is a necessary pre-requisite step to any revolutionary activity anywhere. AmeriKKKa must be destroyed and Russia is the one doing the most damage to it currently.
Lenin worked with Germany and took resources from them. Marx raised money for the Ottomans. Yes, it in fact does mean opposing your own empire by supporting its opponents (and getting supported by its opponents, in Lenin's case) and sabotaging your own empire.
Fence-sitting is passive and neutral. Revolutionary Defeatism is active and works against ones own empire (de facto supporting its opponents) by being a 5th column. Essentially it's being a reverse-comprador. Instead of being a traitor to your own nation in order to empower a foreign imperialist/colonizer coming into your country, you are supposed to be a traitor to your own imperialist nation in order to empower a foreign colony/target to remove your own empire and its proxies.
This is why one of the most essential tasks of any revolutionary party is to analyze and assess whether their own nation is imperialist or not. Not all capitalist nations are imperialist (Gaddafi being attacked by NATO/US deserves critical support, a Libyan revolutionary should not have sabotaged their own nation during war while an America/NATO resident should have).
The question is who you support though, and revolutionary socialists, including Lenin, didn't give money to the Tsar, Metternich, or George V. They sought out different avenues. Supporting revolutionary groups, articles, only in limited cases sabotages, some criminal acts which disturbed the military supply chains and agitation within the military.
This is a far cry from thinking it is enough to be public about critical support of governments online. The latter would be the equivalent of :vote: for anti-imperialists. The former a principled response that actually figures out what the critical means.
Did you read my other comment? I address this pretty clearly
Essentially my issue with western leftists that go around fence sitting and couching their views to liberals as neutral are being dishonest. They are either confused about who they should be supporting or they are lying about it to appeal to Liberals and not to rock the Liberal boat of western consensus. They are spreading social chauvinism instead of correct Leninist analysis of the war.
And by the way, Marx and Engels did raise money for the Ottoman Empire. However that was just one example, nowhere did I propose hexbear money drives for Russia.
Glad to learn, can you give me a citation for that? I didn't find anything after having searched for 15 minutes.
https://neodemocracy.blogspot.com/2017/05/marx-on-ottoman-turks.html?m=1
Couldn’t find anything about the funds, although I know I have seen articles and evidence of it in the past. However, I did find excerpts from Marx that he published in the New York Tribune where he is pretty blatantly arguing against the building Russian tsarist imperialist hegemony, and showing that if the Russians continued their strategy in the Crimean War and took all of Turkey that it would become a massive hegemonic empire (which would be a setback for revolution). Thus he argues for defense of the Ottoman Empire against the Russian imperialists.
So in effect he’s reaching the same conclusion here that I was arguing, that it’s fine for revolutionaries to play empires off of each other to prevent the creation of a single hegemonic empire. In modern day, America has become what Marx feared tsarist Russia would become, the empire that is disastrous to global revolution and set it back a century. So he would argue that it’s fine to support Russia (even if it was an empire like the Turks of yore, which it no longer is) if it means preventing or weakening the global hegemon (America/the collective west) to open up avenues for revolution.
Yeah you're right, I just tend to err on the side of over-simplifying in the first salvo.
I just kinda don’t want to go posting really hard about it. (This is all I could realistically do and I do not like posting really hard about things)
I don’t understand the ultimate goal here. There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Nazis, allied with a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of Russians. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support Russia. Go Nazis.”
Am I…missing something?
Us: The Waffen-SS
wasis bad.You: But whatabout Russia?
It’s becoming abundantly clear that you guys heard the buzzword “whataboutism” and are desperate to use it. But please point to what you think is whataboutism here. I was asking if people here are pro-Russia. And I very much got my answer
Pure projection, try criticizing America in a lib space like yours
A big part of why I ended up hear in hexbear is because it's one of the only places where everybody doesn't lie about your beliefs to just off handedly dismiss your concerns.
It's really interesting how everybody actually in this sub talks about how it's bad Russia invaded and they're deffinitly aggressors and denounce them, we just think nazis are bad.
At a certain point after seeing dozens of people say "you said nazis are bad therefore you support russia" you kind of stop giving a shit what the people actively lying abaout you are saying.
We're sating we don't support a bunchbof nazis.
Dumbshit libs then have to insist that it's because we're just a bunch of Russian nationalists, because otherwise they might have to wrestle with the thought that they're frothing mad at people for saying nazis are bad.
Ok, then I won't lie and will state the truth as bluntly as possible. I personally think the anti-Russia stance of western socialists is chauvinist and incoherent and have argued as much constantly here, with mixed support. As I have explained down below, it's a western socialist's revolutionary defeatist duty to oppose their own empire by being a fifth column and critically supporting its enemies. Lenin was quite clear on this, it does not mean passive fence sitting and both-sidesism. It in fact, is much the opposite. It's active attacks on one's own imperialist government through organized activity to interfere with NATO war funds, NATO war supplies, NATO war support, etc.
It's an incoherent position to say "I oppose my nation's imperialism but I also oppose the enemies of my nation". You don't get to say both. We can argue if the invasion in February 2022 was a strategic error or not, but that doesn't really matter because we are not Russian war strategizers. We are western socialists. Do you understand your place and role? It's to weaken your empire, and if you can work with its enemies to do so you should.
Z. Russia is defending itself and I support their invasion. I think Nazis are bad and need violent action taken against them when they build up concentrated military power. I'm glad someone is finally doing it, despite Putin being a liberal cuck who waited 8 years too long to do it - strung along by EU perfidy.
I've definitely come around from 'war is bad, no one should be at war' to 'the elimination of reactionary forces, specifically those who adorn nazi regalia, is paramount to the continuation of humanity'. Is Russia perfect, no; is Russia killing Nazis at a faster rate than the rest of the world, absolutely yes. Do I want every Nazi in the world dead yesterday, yes; who is going to deliver that goal, Russia; who isn't going to deliver that goal, US and NATO.
I understand where you are coming from but I have a hard time squaring the circle of "US involvement in the middle east only caused further explosion of extremism" and then acting as if Russia invading Ukraine won't have the same effect with what they claim to be fighting.
The US involvement in the Middle East has led to an increase in extremism. The US military withdrew from Afghanistan and Western media along with the useful idiots were upset we weren't continuing the war, those same folks are now thrilled we are supplying Ukraine. The extremism is coming from inside the house.
This and extremism in the Middle East (whatever we wanna define that as) is less immediate or tangibly a threat to Americans as fascism in Ukraine is to Russians. That and the US refused to engage with the governments of these countries and instead blocked diplomacy, whereas Russia did attempt the legal path repeatedly but Minsk kept being violated
Again I see what you are saying, I just don't agree that what Russia is doing actually delivers the goal you are after, based on our own continual examples that it doesn't work that way.
I do think it's bad Russia invaded but also both parties are the aggressor here. NATO has been gearing up for this kind of conflict since at least the early 90s. The coup in 2014 was like the dress rehearsal for right now.
Russia invading was honestly a strategic mistake and it's a tragedy this came to open warfare, but it's not like Russia invaded for no reason, or only to secure power for its own sake. The separatists have been fighting in the region for a while.
While the start of the war might have been different, at this point though NATO is the primary aggressor. They refuse any calls for ceasefire from the Russian side, they continue flooding Ukraine with guns, they keep up the message they'll keep fighting until even Crimea is Ukraine again. Just these impossible lofty goals designed to keep the war churning. NATO loves this war. They've cemented Ukraine as a permanent ally against Russia and they have cause to stir up another permanent war. More quagmires.
But this is kind of my point. The viewpoint depicted in this meme and the bunches of others like it I’ve seen lately is just propaganda going the other way.
It’s a complete oversimplification—and this is EXACTLY what everyone is saying liberals are guilty of. And while it’s true of liberals because it’s a simple narrative that is easy to paint sides into (and American politics is nothing if not ideas painted two colors for ease of identity), it’s also very true of what’s happening here.
People who paint themselves as communist are saying “Ukraine = Nazis,” and just because Russia has a communist history, see “Russia=communist.”
It’s the same sickness that’s completely rotten in the US: a massive oversimplification for ease of allegiance to your stated party/ideals. This one is just painted communist and therefore is getting praised around here.
This is a straight-up inversion of reality, literally nobody on Hexbear believes Russia is a communist country, do you seriously think we are unaware of the collapse of the Soviet Union or the fact Putin was one of the butchers of Russian communism? Ironically, it's liberals who seem unaware of the soviet collapse and still thirty years later try to present Russians as being "ethnically-communist" or have you completely missed liberal rhetoric over the last year?
Also “Ukraine = Nazis" isn't an oversimplification, it's an accurate description of current Ukrainian political economy, as this latest Waffen SS episode has so blatantly demonstrated
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In that case you're not reading reputable sources.
The (Neo-)Nazis in Ukraine fuelled a civil war that killed, injured, and displaced thousands for the better part of a decade. (14,000 deaths, 30,000+ injured, and over a million displaced.)
For you to profess that you know what you're talking about and conclude that Nazis in Ukraine are no worse than Nazis/the alt-right in any other country suggests at least four possibilities:
I'll leave it for you to decide which one it is.
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“There’s Nazis all over the place so what are we supposed to do?” And yet for some odd reason Nazis have a habit of not existing in communist countries. It’s almost as though nazism can be eliminated entirely by getting rid of the capitalist economic system that generates them!
People are calling Ukraine a nazi state because it is full of nazi apologists, is full of nazi symbolism, their national heroes are nazis, their military is full of nazis, they parade genocidal SS members in foreign governments, and so on. Plenty of people here speak on the tragedy that Ukrainians are experiencing but that doesn't mean you ignore the nazis, who at a minimum served as the tail 'wagging the dog' of the Ukrainian state escalating violence in the conflict with the DPR and LPR, cascading into the war.
No one is saying Russia = communist. By that logic, Ukrainian history also would imply it as being communist, they have just as much a right to that legacy as Russia. Talking for myself, I am mostly horrified at the complete acceptance and triumphalism that nazis have received in the west in the past couple of years. I imagine most users of this site feel the same way. I repeatedly talk with people IRL about this conflict that goes into history and context for why Russia is not insane nor evil for this war, despite it still being a tragedy, and I get a lot of people who call me a putinbot, tankie, or some equivalent thought terminating cliche.
I think a lot of people have chosen a side because we have not been meaningfully allowed a voice to advocate for peaceful diplomatic measures. Calls for peace and diplomacy are met with accusations of russian propaganda. Nazi membership is merely russian propaganda now. So, for many, these are the sides and you have to choose one or the other and some US leftists are choosing revolutionary defeatism, sometimes it has a more vulgar pro-russia/anti-nazi stance but it's wayy better than the vulgar pro-nazi stance lmao.
The Waffen-SS guy is a Ukrainian-Canadian. He was ratlined to Canada after WW2 (along with a lot of other Ukrainian Nazis). There are a huge number of monuments to Nazi collaborators in Canada. Modern Ukraine's only involvement with this specific Nazi is Zelensky applauding for him and Canada bringing him on to honor Ukraine.
Thanks for saying this. WW2 Ukraine did more to fight Fascism than any nation other than Russia. Ukrainians who fought against Fascism outnumber the Nazi collaborators by over 10 to 1. Ukraine did more to defeat the Nazis than all the western allies combined. It's shameful how modern Ukraine and the entire west idolize the collaborators and spit in the face of those who fought against the Nazis.
Not to mention, the far right nazi affiliated parties have never gotten more than 3% of the vote.
Neo nazis and white supremacists and far right people are everywhere. To paint this entire conflict as “denazification” is literally just gobbling up party propaganda for the sake of making life more cut-and-dry for these peoples chosen political beliefs…which is exactly what they’re saying liberals are doing. Which—to be entirely fair—is true of liberals. But it’s also entirely true of these communists. Stupid team sports politics is stupid team sports politics.
if nazis are no problem in ukraine, how did they continure the civil war after the peace agreements? why did they ban all opposition parties? why make speaking russian illegal? why does every fucking photo of the AFU have a Nazi symbol in it? if nazis only have 3% of the vote, how do they have 15% of the seats in parliament? please do some basic research, i found all of this with a google search, its not even hidden very well.
https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf
https://press.un.org/en/2022/ga12483.doc.htm
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14823.doc.htm
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf
https://www.state.gov/reports/2018-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ukraine/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/white-supremacists-other-extremists-respond-russian-invasion-ukraine
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2015-000653_EN.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY
and for the record, if there was someone invading america to kill our nazis, i would support them also.
If Nazis hold top positions in the military and local governments and the national government continues to support and empower them, does it really matter if Nazi parties don't win elections? They get what they want anyways.
Ukrainian fascists control the Ukrainian government while Russian communists are just controlled opposition with no real power in Russia.
Just want to say that although the KPRF is not what it once was (lol), I think it’s better than controlled opposition. The fact that the western press never mentions it and that the vast majority of Americans are unaware of its existence entirely is proof enough for me that imperialists don’t trust it and that it is actually a threat to them.
Propaganda that praising and clapping for literal Nazi jew killers is bad actually? Why is that propaganda and not just simple, blunt truth that Canada self-owned with? Russia didn't make Canada clap for the jew killer and thank him for his service, they did that all on their own because it's who they are.
What's a complete oversimplification? Be explicit, what is being oversimplified? That Canada is filled with tens of thousands of Ukrainian Nazis that they purposefully accepted into their country to break the pro-labor Ukrainian diaspora that existed there pre-WW2? The decades of historical revisionism and nazi apologetics becoming mainstream that allow for this to happen? This was all consciously pushed by your leaders, who are nazi sympathetic. If anything, the oversimplification is that this makes like a little whoopsie by 1 Canadian MP instead of part of a decades long Nazi project by Canadian elites specifically, and western elites more broadly.
NATO was staffed top to bottom with Nazis. Operation Aerodynamic began funding and spreading nazi ideology in Ukraine before the bodies were even cleaned up from Nazi genocide. The west installed fascists and Nazis into power in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine, Indonesia, West Germany and dozens of other places. This is who they are.
I am torn, I go back and forth. The main polity I blame is the US for just endless reasons, but mainly the maidan coup. That I'm consistent on. I go back and forth on if Russia's invasion is justified. My gut instinct, like you, is to say that war is bad so Russia, while reacting to real hostilities from the greater west, should not have resorted to invasion.
The powerful posters at Hexbear keep reminding me that Russia did hold off for 8 years. Ukraine and NATO lied about Minsk. And when you think about the people of Donbas, it makes Russia feel more justified. Ukraine has been bombing it's own cities for nearly a decade. Do those people deserve to suffer? Obviously this war is terrible for the average Ukrainian, but so it is for the Russian speaking Ukrainians.
But the alarm about nazis in Ukraine started during Maidan protests. The phrase 'Revolution of Dignity' was coined by a far-right Ukrainian during this time. This was before Crimea was annexed and the far-right started doing violence against ethnic Russian-Ukrainians in Donbas. This is not a new thing. Canada just made it much more obvious. There's tons of mainstream media reporting from 2014 to 2019 about Ukraine's neo-nazi militias being a major concern.
Zelensky was elected to diffuse this tension within Ukraine. He campaign on resolving this issue peacefully. He won majorities in eastern Ukriane and didn't do as well in the western Ukraine where the Banderites are. Do you know anything about the history of Ukraine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election#/media/File:2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election,_round_2.svg
Tracing the origins of 'Revolution of Dignity':
https://www.researchgate.net/post/When-was-the-term-Revolution-of-Dignity-initially-used-in-reference-to-the-protests-in-Ukraine-in-November-2013-February2014
according to some research here, it started with far-right/fascist political leaders in Ukraine
Oleh Tyahnybok (literally a leader of the national-socialist party of Ukraine) seems to have been the first to popularize the term to a broader audience of Ukrainians. He's the guy in the picture with all the libs and doing the nazi salute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-National_Party_of_Ukraine
Since you invoked whataboutism first by bringing up Russia, allow me to invoke whataboutism of my own. Supporting Russia is morally superior to supporting the United States. There is no possible way for you refute this using evidence. While America was engaged in illegal wars of aggression against what, I believe SEVEN different countries under Obama, none of you liberals that supposedly love democracy ever once advocated for the complete and total economic and social isolation of America from the rest of the world until they resolved their authoritarian issues. You NEVER speak about America and its allies with the vitriol you reserve for Russia, China, and Iran, who all commit significantly less violence upon the world COMBINED than America does alone.
Thank you, I’m a fellow hexbear who supports Russia for all its imperfections. I’m also Jewish so I’m happy with almost anyone mercing Nazis. Americans likewise have no right to criticize any other country, and saying that both sides are equally bad merely helps the aggressor, which anyone with an awareness of history prior to 2022 knows is amerikkka.
Western communists should also realize that a clear NATO defeat in Ukraine could create new opportunities for us in our own countries, while I think we all know that a NATO victory will lead to more of the same fucking bullshit.
Lol please point to what you understand as “whataboutism” in what I said
We're talking about Ukraine's obvious Nazi problem and you said this:
This is classic whataboutism, a well known Soviet Communist Disinformatsiya technique. No one is saying Russia isn't bad, but bringing that up doesn't excuse what this conversation is about; it just distracts and provides cover for Ukrainian Nazis.
You brought up Russia unprompted.
It says a lot that you managed to ignore everything else I said though. Please explain why in your comment, you made it seem like supporting Russia would be wrong. Keep in mind that your criticisms of Russia must make Russia's actions worse than the actions of the United States. If criticizing Russia's enemies means supporting Russia, then criticizing America's enemies means supporting America, who is a greater evil to the world than Russia could hope to be. So from my POV and most people here, supporting Russia and criticizing their enemies simply makes more sense for leftists to be doing.
Progressive Liberals that think they're leftists will claim they don't support democrats but do everything they can to keep them in power because they're the lesser evil to Trump and Republicans. I don't want to simply assume for you that you follow "lesser evil" logic in politics, but if you do, you must admit that it is logical to support the lesser evil of Russia, China, and Iran against America, the most bloodthirsty empire in human history.
So...if Ukraine wins or collapses or it just devolves into a forever war, there's going to be a lot more Nazis in eastern Europe and a surge in reaction. Ukraine, if it survives, will be a fascist state once Zelensky looses the unifying pressure of war. If it doesn't Europe will be flooded with ukranian irredentist groups and Polish Gallacia will be essentially fascist.
To preserve NATO, these reactionaries will need to be accomodated, much as Turkey is. Sobthe public must be primed.
The EU has already had to make accommodations with Polish Fascists. And the only reason the Hungarians haven't been rehabilitated is that they're sticking with a pro Russia strategy. The one silver lining is that all these Nationalists hate each other and have trouble coordinating without a dominant party forcing them.
And NATO flooded the region with enough weapons to make the middle east jealous
They found a way to do it in the open with this one, which makes things a little easier.
What others said, but also it's funny to make fun of Canadian parliament eating shit. Standing ovation to a literal uniformed Nazi is pretty embarrassing and they should feel embarrassed.
The putlerbots are so conniving and inscrutable. It sure took a lot of deductive power and analytical prowess to reveal their subliminal agenda!
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The vast majority of the world's working class are POC for whom Nazism is an existential threat due to its expansionist and genocidal ideology. What do you propose is appropriate for us to do in the face of the impregnation of Nazi ideology in the world's most (ostensibly) powerful and (objectively) aggressive military bloc?
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Z. All Nazis will be obliterated.