Austria still has conscription (for men only, and you can do either 9 months of social work or 6 months of military service). Tbh I’m against it.
AFAIK in Germany you don't get punished with a longer time for choosing the social work option, which can also be things like doing research as you have choice over what it is. IMO some sort of national service is a good thing - work experience, communal work, sense of solidarity. And of course you want it to be gender-equal.
Peacetime conscription in a country that probably won't fight a war within your lifetime is definitely annoying. But with the alternative service option I see it as an extension of compulsory education - in the wider Bildung sense, the formation of the citizen.
If you're part of a society - you must sweat and bleed for it. If you sweat and bleed for your society - you will demand more from it. The government shouldn't be some distant corporation that you have no relationship with - because if it doesn't need anything from you, it won't give anything back to you.
Yeah the gender imbalance is one of my main problems with it. I think it causes resentment that women aren't conscripted. OTOH I had female friends who were frustrated that they had to pay out of their own pocket to do a social volunteer year while their male friends got paid for the same work. (However Austria kinda lags behind in terms of workplace gender equality in general, so I have friends who argue that has to be fixed first.)
On the other hand, idk, I guess I'm just wary about everyone having to go through conscripted training. I feel like when the state is overall right wing, it's just an extra opportunity to pour nationalistic propaganda into impressionable young people. Maybe because I'm a little more familiar with the Russian and Israeli army conscription, where imo that's definitely the case. (All my male Austrian friends did the social work thing.) Ofc it's different if it's a social work year and not army training, but that still leaves the question of what the army should be comprised of.
Finally tbh it's kind of annoying for immigrants 😂 Like it's one thing if you and all your friends do six months of helping out in the old people's home before properly starting work/uni. It's another if you're finally eligible for Austrian citizenship at 28 and either have to quit your job and work for like 600EUR/month for 9 months or cross your fingers and hope that nothing changes so you can wait to get citizenship at 35.
Ofc it’s different if it’s a social work year and not army training, but that still leaves the question of what the army should be comprised of.
True! I guess the logical of democratizing war ultimately means dropping all exemptions (except mental/physical disability) - everyone must have an equal chance to serve. That doesn't mean everyone has to be drafted into soldering, but everyone must have a chance of being drafted by lottery, so that every demographic is represented. An added benefit is every citizen is a potential soldier - every community has veterans capable of resisting oppression by force.
If your country is actually in danger, then you vote that ~50% of all eligible draftees have to become soldiers next year (and 50% do social work). If war is not on the horizon, then it's only some 5% (and 95% do social work). Actually teaching everyone to fight would pose problems - it's like giving everyone a hammer.
when the state is overall right wing, it’s just an extra opportunity to pour nationalistic propaganda into impressionable young people.
No more than at school. And just as at school, when it's you and your peers going through it, you can see through their bullshit better. With a professional army, the young people who already fell for the propaganda are isolated in a bubble.
I think societies like Israel's have militarized cultures. Conscription is not the linchpin of propaganda, it's just one aspect of the system.
To be completely honest, I think this is one of those areas of discussion where for me there's a huge difference between a "hypothetical, ideal situation" and my current, specific one.
When I read through your proposals, I think even if we could quibble over the particularities, I agree with your ideas overall. I think there's a lot of merit to having everyone do a social work year in general, and I think the point about some kind of lottery system for the military is fair.
But when I think about what if Austria were to do this system tomorrow, I feel immediately revolted. I'm an immigrant from the Soviet region. I do really like Austria. The country is beautiful and I like the people and lifestyle, even if I thought it was the most boring place on earth as a teenager lol. If the conscription was extended to women I don't mind doing the social year. But I just don't wanna pick up a fucking gun for this ex Third Reich country that massacred my relatives. When I visited the local concentration camp last, I searched the names for my grandpa's brother - he was MIA and hey you never know. If I won the 5% lottery I think I'd rather serve the jail time. It's illogical but there you go.
I think this is one of those areas of discussion where for me there’s a huge difference between a “hypothetical, ideal situation” and my current, specific one.
You're totally right! Hypothetically supporting having conscription in an ideal society is different from supporting it in a specific place and time.
I’m an immigrant from the Soviet region
Ich auch, aber wohne in der Staaten. Vielleicht verstehen wir einander deshalb )
But I just don’t wanna pick up a fucking gun for this ex Third Reich country that massacred my relatives.
The problem here is of course not conscription in Austria, but rather, like with everything else in life, the dissolution of the Soviet Union! Or, more abstractly, anyone having to move to a place that they aren't willing to fight for. I'd see no problem fighting for (denazified) East Germany, for example.
My perception of boot camp and stuff was always that of a giant hazing ritual, which while I’m sure it’s necessary it just feels off.
Yeah, war sucks. But if society is gonna do war - then everyone must have a chance of being hazed. What should happen in a democratic/free society is that people hate being hazed enough that they vote for politicians who avoid conflict and resolve differences so eventually no one has to be hazed.
What happens now is only the poor (and bullies) get hazed. That's both unjust AND there's no negative feedback loop for the rest of society not to engage in war.
AFAIK in Germany you don't get punished with a longer time for choosing the social work option, which can also be things like doing research as you have choice over what it is. IMO some sort of national service is a good thing - work experience, communal work, sense of solidarity. And of course you want it to be gender-equal.
Peacetime conscription in a country that probably won't fight a war within your lifetime is definitely annoying. But with the alternative service option I see it as an extension of compulsory education - in the wider Bildung sense, the formation of the citizen.
If you're part of a society - you must sweat and bleed for it. If you sweat and bleed for your society - you will demand more from it. The government shouldn't be some distant corporation that you have no relationship with - because if it doesn't need anything from you, it won't give anything back to you.
Yeah the gender imbalance is one of my main problems with it. I think it causes resentment that women aren't conscripted. OTOH I had female friends who were frustrated that they had to pay out of their own pocket to do a social volunteer year while their male friends got paid for the same work. (However Austria kinda lags behind in terms of workplace gender equality in general, so I have friends who argue that has to be fixed first.)
On the other hand, idk, I guess I'm just wary about everyone having to go through conscripted training. I feel like when the state is overall right wing, it's just an extra opportunity to pour nationalistic propaganda into impressionable young people. Maybe because I'm a little more familiar with the Russian and Israeli army conscription, where imo that's definitely the case. (All my male Austrian friends did the social work thing.) Ofc it's different if it's a social work year and not army training, but that still leaves the question of what the army should be comprised of.
Finally tbh it's kind of annoying for immigrants 😂 Like it's one thing if you and all your friends do six months of helping out in the old people's home before properly starting work/uni. It's another if you're finally eligible for Austrian citizenship at 28 and either have to quit your job and work for like 600EUR/month for 9 months or cross your fingers and hope that nothing changes so you can wait to get citizenship at 35.
True! I guess the logical of democratizing war ultimately means dropping all exemptions (except mental/physical disability) - everyone must have an equal chance to serve. That doesn't mean everyone has to be drafted into soldering, but everyone must have a chance of being drafted by lottery, so that every demographic is represented. An added benefit is every citizen is a potential soldier - every community has veterans capable of resisting oppression by force.
If your country is actually in danger, then you vote that ~50% of all eligible draftees have to become soldiers next year (and 50% do social work). If war is not on the horizon, then it's only some 5% (and 95% do social work). Actually teaching everyone to fight would pose problems - it's like giving everyone a hammer.
No more than at school. And just as at school, when it's you and your peers going through it, you can see through their bullshit better. With a professional army, the young people who already fell for the propaganda are isolated in a bubble.
I think societies like Israel's have militarized cultures. Conscription is not the linchpin of propaganda, it's just one aspect of the system.
To be completely honest, I think this is one of those areas of discussion where for me there's a huge difference between a "hypothetical, ideal situation" and my current, specific one.
When I read through your proposals, I think even if we could quibble over the particularities, I agree with your ideas overall. I think there's a lot of merit to having everyone do a social work year in general, and I think the point about some kind of lottery system for the military is fair.
But when I think about what if Austria were to do this system tomorrow, I feel immediately revolted. I'm an immigrant from the Soviet region. I do really like Austria. The country is beautiful and I like the people and lifestyle, even if I thought it was the most boring place on earth as a teenager lol. If the conscription was extended to women I don't mind doing the social year. But I just don't wanna pick up a fucking gun for this ex Third Reich country that massacred my relatives. When I visited the local concentration camp last, I searched the names for my grandpa's brother - he was MIA and hey you never know. If I won the 5% lottery I think I'd rather serve the jail time. It's illogical but there you go.
You're totally right! Hypothetically supporting having conscription in an ideal society is different from supporting it in a specific place and time.
Ich auch, aber wohne in der Staaten. Vielleicht verstehen wir einander deshalb )
The problem here is of course not conscription in Austria, but rather, like with everything else in life, the dissolution of the Soviet Union! Or, more abstractly, anyone having to move to a place that they aren't willing to fight for. I'd see no problem fighting for (denazified) East Germany, for example.
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Starship Troopers are a professional military! You have to volunteer to join - and if you don't you're a soy beta.
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"Service guarantees citizenship" - you only get to vote if you have served in the military.
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Yeah, war sucks. But if society is gonna do war - then everyone must have a chance of being hazed. What should happen in a democratic/free society is that people hate being hazed enough that they vote for politicians who avoid conflict and resolve differences so eventually no one has to be hazed.
What happens now is only the poor (and bullies) get hazed. That's both unjust AND there's no negative feedback loop for the rest of society not to engage in war.
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