Frankly there’s no better place to learn the language than in China itself.
I agree, but living in China won't magically make you learn the language either. Chinese is a language that needs serious and constant dedication (I know this well).
Is very easy to live in China without knowing the language, and frankly in China is the best place to learn the language.
Sadly, it is. But I will also say that not knowing the language will limit you a lot. A big chuck of foreigners that live in China, do so in zones that specially cater to their needs, and are specially designed for them. They don't go to a lot of places your average Chinese goes. Just to give an example: last time I went to eat something with some Americans in Beijing, we ended up eating in a restaurant that charged us around 50 yuan for the most simple dishes. In Beijing people usually spend 7 to 12 yuan when they eat outside. Not knowing the language ends up making you not experiencing China, but an "amusement park" for foreigners.
English-speakers are definitely privileged by English being the global lingua franca, but calling it ‘disgusting’ is unfair.
I'm sorry, I just think it's something that is really unfair. For me it's a constant reminder of who owns my country, and who owns the world. I was forced to learn this language despite not being English. I had to bear English people making fun of my country, and showing off their privilege. Moreover, most crimes of English speaking countries are whitewashed, but ironically they get to judge the rest of the world.
gatekeeping against people who’re clearly acting in good faith.
I don't think I gatekeeped, I just adviced him to learn the language first - I think that's what should be done.
About good faith, maybe I'm a bit cynical. After seen so many white pedophiles in South East Asia, and so many disrespectful foreigners, I think I tend to think they hide something.
I agree, although passively learning Chinese is less effective than passively learning other languages, ex. English. This is because Chinese is a highly contextual language (there are many characters that share the same tones and syllables), and because Chinese characters can't be read unless you already know them.
Having Chinese friends and teachers is definitely super useful.
I just don’t really see the difference between ‘moving-then-learning’ and ‘learning-then-moving’.
I mainly have two reasons that make me think the latter is better than the former:
(1) I think is better to have certain familiarity with the language of the country you are moving to. It might also make your life easier, or give you a certain perspective on things. Basically, I think is better to know how water feels like, instead of jumping directly to the pool, and learning how to swim. This is my opinion, I can understand why someone would think learning directly is better.
(2) Moving to another country is something serious, I think before moving it's better to "get a taste" of the language of the country you are moving to. What if you move to the country and you find that you don't like the language? What if when you move to the country, you start learning the language, and you find it's too hard for you? I don't think people need to have a perfect Chinese, but at least know some basics to get a perspective. Then again, this is only just an opinion (an opinion that comes from experience, tho, I emigrated to China too,). Anyway, people should above all follow the methods that suit them best.
In China – hardly – no if you intend to have a normal life (ex. chatting with friends on WeChat, buying things on Taobao, traveling in China, etc). You can live without knowing how to write, but reading is fundamental.
If you want to live there long term, yes, but if you have years to do that then learning how to read won't be a problem. Many people manage to live in many countries being almost completely illiterate beyond an extremely basic level. For the internet you still have translate for the short term. It's not the same with understanding the spoken language because that's almost always a far greater obstacle. I'm saying that because learning how to speak chinese is generally considered far easier than learning how to read and write chinese.
there are so many people in formerly colonized countries who literally hate their own culture, languages, customs etc. the more western they are, the more civilized. and then there are others who have utter contempt and disdain for anything foreign and glorify our history and whitewash our own atrocities. idk, it's a tough balance, and very easy to give in to the extremes.
I agree, but living in China won't magically make you learn the language either. Chinese is a language that needs serious and constant dedication (I know this well).
Sadly, it is. But I will also say that not knowing the language will limit you a lot. A big chuck of foreigners that live in China, do so in zones that specially cater to their needs, and are specially designed for them. They don't go to a lot of places your average Chinese goes. Just to give an example: last time I went to eat something with some Americans in Beijing, we ended up eating in a restaurant that charged us around 50 yuan for the most simple dishes. In Beijing people usually spend 7 to 12 yuan when they eat outside. Not knowing the language ends up making you not experiencing China, but an "amusement park" for foreigners.
I'm sorry, I just think it's something that is really unfair. For me it's a constant reminder of who owns my country, and who owns the world. I was forced to learn this language despite not being English. I had to bear English people making fun of my country, and showing off their privilege. Moreover, most crimes of English speaking countries are whitewashed, but ironically they get to judge the rest of the world.
I don't think I gatekeeped, I just adviced him to learn the language first - I think that's what should be done.
About good faith, maybe I'm a bit cynical. After seen so many white pedophiles in South East Asia, and so many disrespectful foreigners, I think I tend to think they hide something.
deleted by creator
I agree, although passively learning Chinese is less effective than passively learning other languages, ex. English. This is because Chinese is a highly contextual language (there are many characters that share the same tones and syllables), and because Chinese characters can't be read unless you already know them.
Having Chinese friends and teachers is definitely super useful.
I mainly have two reasons that make me think the latter is better than the former:
(1) I think is better to have certain familiarity with the language of the country you are moving to. It might also make your life easier, or give you a certain perspective on things. Basically, I think is better to know how water feels like, instead of jumping directly to the pool, and learning how to swim. This is my opinion, I can understand why someone would think learning directly is better.
(2) Moving to another country is something serious, I think before moving it's better to "get a taste" of the language of the country you are moving to. What if you move to the country and you find that you don't like the language? What if when you move to the country, you start learning the language, and you find it's too hard for you? I don't think people need to have a perfect Chinese, but at least know some basics to get a perspective. Then again, this is only just an opinion (an opinion that comes from experience, tho, I emigrated to China too,). Anyway, people should above all follow the methods that suit them best.
Learning a language and learning to read the language are different things tho.
Learning a language is general (every aspect), learning how to read is specific (reading). What's your point?
You can go a long way without ever learning to read the language above a very basic level.
In China – hardly – no if you intend to have a normal life (ex. chatting with friends on WeChat, buying things on Taobao, traveling in China, etc). You can live without knowing how to write, but reading is fundamental.
If you want to live there long term, yes, but if you have years to do that then learning how to read won't be a problem. Many people manage to live in many countries being almost completely illiterate beyond an extremely basic level. For the internet you still have translate for the short term. It's not the same with understanding the spoken language because that's almost always a far greater obstacle. I'm saying that because learning how to speak chinese is generally considered far easier than learning how to read and write chinese.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
there are so many people in formerly colonized countries who literally hate their own culture, languages, customs etc. the more western they are, the more civilized. and then there are others who have utter contempt and disdain for anything foreign and glorify our history and whitewash our own atrocities. idk, it's a tough balance, and very easy to give in to the extremes.