"Actually I'm just assuming shit about a subject that I don't have any deep meaningful knowledge of"
Thanks for the comment champ! We all appreciate that kind of spitballing about history and societal sentiments around here. In the future you could just shut the fuck up instead of trying to speak for Palestinians on the internet.
Not any worse than implying that every Gazan huddled in dark places praying for their lives under constant Israeli bombardment all support the murder of other people as payback
You know, I'm 99% there with the message we're going with here. I think having a rave outside an open air prison is insane and deserving of scorn, and that the people who died there only had themselves to blame.
That said, I'm going to call bullshit on "revenge is good". Idk, I've been the "retributive justice is poison" guy on here for awhile, and made many posts here about it that have been mostly well received. So I'm going to put my foot down on actively celebrating revenge. Understanding the history and circumstances that cause it? Yes. Blaming Israel/the settlers for it and not Hamas? Yes. Continuing to support the Palestinian cause no matter what excesses take place? Absolutely yes.
"Revenge is good" though? No. Its a regrettable reality. People die in a revolution. Some people are going to be angry enough to go beyond what is purely pragmatically necessary. Its a thing thats going to happen no matter what we do, and we go on supporting the cause anyway. Revolutions are never clean. We accept and understand that, we don't celebrate it.
I'm sorry, but when I see posts like this I get worried. I do not like the idea of fighting a revolution alongside people who are just looking to kill people for revenge. Your motive should be making a better world. We kill because we have to, not because we want to.
I think some people on here read "We make no excuses for the terror" and saw it as license for bloodthirst. But to me, what Marx meant wasn't that we actively revel in commuting acts of terror, its that we recognize the necessity of it and do it because we have to.
You're reminding me of a Mao quote I halfway remember, something about not taking joy in the destruction and violence of a revolution, but recognizing that it's dirty but necessary. Someone smarter than me could probably fill in the blanks, but I agree with your post.
Revenge-driven actions have not historically worked out for the people taking their revenue in the long run for eitherthem nor the cause. I'm with the Palestinian diplomats and journalists putting the violence in context without saying its good.
I don't need deep, meaningful knowledge to know that spree shooting and raping bystanders is fucking wrong. A child knows that's wrong. An adult is just better at lying to themselves about it.
This isn't a spree shooting. It's a coordinated military action, where bystanders will get shot, because that is the nature of war, all wars. As for the raping of bystanders, we will see what the record says, but I highly doubt any claims coming from either the U.S. or Israeli media about that occurring. There have already been claims of beheadings and infant killings, none of which have been substantiated with evidence thus far, but all of this stuff smacks of 'oriental brown-skinned hordes' tropes. I have seen the videos of bystanders being shot, and I would be utterly shocked if they weren't being shot, especially given the usual Israeli treatment of bystanders, even during times of supposed 'ceasefire'.
However, comparing this to some sort of independent actor 'spree killing' like what occurs in the U.S. is some truly dense shit.
This is probably the most rational response I've received, thank you.
I can respect that the raping might be misinformation, but what about the kidnappings? IIRC, HAMAS has confirmed it alongside US and Israeli intelligence. And this is probably going to smack of bothsidesism, but I'm wildly unimpressed with the Israeli government's seeming policy of seeking to maximize collateral damage whenever possible. They're a bunch of shameless authoritarian fuckheads with no regard for life. I don't see it in a different light when HAMAS does it, though. I'm sure they have their reasons, but that's just it, any fool can justify murder to themselves; the Nazis weren't walking around telling themselves "wow, the Jews don't deserve this", and neither were the American military when they were leading the Native American genocide. Right now, the Israeli government's justification mill is running full tilt. I'm sure the CIA are masters of convincing themselves that they're justified in their actions. So, claims that it's justified ring a little hollow for me.
Is there any truth to the idea that there were off duty IDF present at the rave? IIRC, Israel is a conscription country, so I'm wondering if there's real truth there or if it's just that there's basically IDF members everywhere.
"Actually I'm just assuming shit about a subject that I don't have any deep meaningful knowledge of"
Thanks for the comment champ! We all appreciate that kind of spitballing about history and societal sentiments around here. In the future you could just shut the fuck up instead of trying to speak for Palestinians on the internet.
Not any worse than implying that every Gazan huddled in dark places praying for their lives under constant Israeli bombardment all support the murder of other people as payback
If I was being bombed by settlers, I would want them dead. Do not act like this is a purity fetish competition. Revenge is good.
You know, I'm 99% there with the message we're going with here. I think having a rave outside an open air prison is insane and deserving of scorn, and that the people who died there only had themselves to blame.
That said, I'm going to call bullshit on "revenge is good". Idk, I've been the "retributive justice is poison" guy on here for awhile, and made many posts here about it that have been mostly well received. So I'm going to put my foot down on actively celebrating revenge. Understanding the history and circumstances that cause it? Yes. Blaming Israel/the settlers for it and not Hamas? Yes. Continuing to support the Palestinian cause no matter what excesses take place? Absolutely yes.
"Revenge is good" though? No. Its a regrettable reality. People die in a revolution. Some people are going to be angry enough to go beyond what is purely pragmatically necessary. Its a thing thats going to happen no matter what we do, and we go on supporting the cause anyway. Revolutions are never clean. We accept and understand that, we don't celebrate it.
I'm sorry, but when I see posts like this I get worried. I do not like the idea of fighting a revolution alongside people who are just looking to kill people for revenge. Your motive should be making a better world. We kill because we have to, not because we want to.
I think some people on here read "We make no excuses for the terror" and saw it as license for bloodthirst. But to me, what Marx meant wasn't that we actively revel in commuting acts of terror, its that we recognize the necessity of it and do it because we have to.
You're reminding me of a Mao quote I halfway remember, something about not taking joy in the destruction and violence of a revolution, but recognizing that it's dirty but necessary. Someone smarter than me could probably fill in the blanks, but I agree with your post.
Mao agreeing with me is cool I'm going to tell my girlfriend.
Mao is famously quoted as saying "Hexbear user Autismdragon is cool, and fun to hang out with". Frankly, this is what inspired me to read more theory.
I'm not as cool as Mao but I'm with you too.
Revenge-driven actions have not historically worked out for the people taking their revenue in the long run for eitherthem nor the cause. I'm with the Palestinian diplomats and journalists putting the violence in context without saying its good.
fair enough perhaps
I don't need deep, meaningful knowledge to know that spree shooting and raping bystanders is fucking wrong. A child knows that's wrong. An adult is just better at lying to themselves about it.
christ it's like you're trying to not get it lmao
This isn't a spree shooting. It's a coordinated military action, where bystanders will get shot, because that is the nature of war, all wars. As for the raping of bystanders, we will see what the record says, but I highly doubt any claims coming from either the U.S. or Israeli media about that occurring. There have already been claims of beheadings and infant killings, none of which have been substantiated with evidence thus far, but all of this stuff smacks of 'oriental brown-skinned hordes' tropes. I have seen the videos of bystanders being shot, and I would be utterly shocked if they weren't being shot, especially given the usual Israeli treatment of bystanders, even during times of supposed 'ceasefire'.
However, comparing this to some sort of independent actor 'spree killing' like what occurs in the U.S. is some truly dense shit.
This is probably the most rational response I've received, thank you.
I can respect that the raping might be misinformation, but what about the kidnappings? IIRC, HAMAS has confirmed it alongside US and Israeli intelligence. And this is probably going to smack of bothsidesism, but I'm wildly unimpressed with the Israeli government's seeming policy of seeking to maximize collateral damage whenever possible. They're a bunch of shameless authoritarian fuckheads with no regard for life. I don't see it in a different light when HAMAS does it, though. I'm sure they have their reasons, but that's just it, any fool can justify murder to themselves; the Nazis weren't walking around telling themselves "wow, the Jews don't deserve this", and neither were the American military when they were leading the Native American genocide. Right now, the Israeli government's justification mill is running full tilt. I'm sure the CIA are masters of convincing themselves that they're justified in their actions. So, claims that it's justified ring a little hollow for me.
Is there any truth to the idea that there were off duty IDF present at the rave? IIRC, Israel is a conscription country, so I'm wondering if there's real truth there or if it's just that there's basically IDF members everywhere.