Also, it's not that relevant but as far as I know it was never described officially as a rave for "peace". Even old promotional material doesn't.
They described it as "a journey of unity and love" as well as, I quote, a celebration of "friends, love and infinite freedom".
A celebration of infinite freedom a few hundred meters from an open air prison
Sleepy Biden repeated that they were music goers celebrating peace like 3 times.
Unrelated, but I went to take a look at the speech he did; I rarely hear Biden speak in general as I'm in the EU, and jesus christ he's gotten worse since the last time I heard him. He looks like he's physically in pain and it's taking all his will to properly read the words out.
He looks like he's physically in pain and it's taking all his will to properly read the words out.
I hope so
To anyone who has ever been to a rave before, this is usual raver selling chatter. As much as I generally enjoy EDM and all of it's accompanying genres, I genuinely dislike the universal adoption of the superfluous language that was originally used to encourage people to come out and dance in areas that were considered 'abandoned' and 'condemned' to music made by people who were considered the castoffs of society. It all rings hollow when it is just rich kids at a club sponsored by a weapons manufacturer.
It's one of my favorite parts of Disco Elysium, but as much as we want to separate the dance from reality, the dance still exists there.
Burners doing burner things. Gotten tired of people telling me that we can solve world hunger with good enough management without ever mentioning that capitalism FUCKING NECESSITATES PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN POVERTY. Like, I get that they want to feel good about themselves, but there is so much cognitive dissonance going on that it is no wonder they snack on psychedelics like candy.
If it was random, not-explicitly-nazi germans who were having a picnic outside Auschwitz and got merked by escaped prisoners, I'd still be like "yeah maybe you weren't soldiers, but "
Ultimately I would still say the blame is to be laid 100% on the regime that put people in the concentration camps, not the people who escaped from them.
I hate how they keep framing this as "omg peaceful party-goers just massacred by savage orcs!" totally side-stepping all of the history that's lead up to this day and why this attack happened.
everyone keeps telling me how bad I'm supposed to feel for these people. I really don't at all, maybe if you're partying a few miles from a concentration camp you deserve to be fuckin killed. people are pretending like this a new thing, musicians and performers have for decades refused to perform in Israel exactly for this reason.
This "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" is going really fucking hard right now. All it would take is to not tolerate intolerance and not put a timeline on someone else's freedom and you could have good foreign policy. Millions of people die for bullshit. It's fucking bullshit. And what do we get in return? Cheap plastic? Rush hour traffic? What the fuck???
Sorry chief but a better world isn't possible and if you try to make one you'll just end up eating everyone's grain with a giant spoon.
- Show
this is the animal zoo for the SS children at KZ buchenwald , dehumanization is a central issue.
What the fuck literally in view of the place where they burned bodies?
yes , they didnt mind ...
thats what you need to understand about the rave attendees , they are only there because they didnt mind..
Israel learned one thing from the Holocaust: You can get away with it if you do it really slowly.
Thank you. I'm not Jewish but it pisses me off when people downplay or try to normalize the holocaust. You show a kid those bodies stacked like cordwood and I guarantee their first question wouldn't have anything to do with ethnicity or religion or anything like that. They'd want to know why all those people are dead and who killed them.
I like how we've gone from "false flag" and "misinformation" to "it was justified". Fuck the Israeli government, but I can't get on board with deliberately pixelating bystanders, no matter what side is doing it. There was no message here, no tactical goal was achieved, it's just misery for misery's sake.
I'm sorry if the desperate, terrified inhabitants of a open air prison don't have a coordinated enough strategy for you. I'm sorry that in their misery they only have revenge in mind.
The terrified inhabitants are still in the Gaza Strip, and I fear for their lives in the face of an impending land invasion of the strip. Hamas fighters are an organized militia and I will judge them and their actions differently than I will unarmed civilians. Stop equating all Palestinians with Hamas - that is exactly what Israel wants.
I only did a quick google, but apparently support is at 58%. Thats technically "most", but not enough of a majority to write off the people who don't really.
And one thing that GEAS is definitly correct about, for all their inappropriate handwringing that they've done, is that Israel wants Hamas conflated with Palestine and doing so serves their cause. (Much like conflating Jews with Israel serves the antisemitic cause, and I'm pretty sure polling for support for Israel among the Jewish diapsora is higher than 58%)
Personally I'd just choose to not go to the dance party on stolen land in the apartheid state, and in particular I would avoid the dance party taking place mockingly close to the people being genocided in an open air prison.
I mean, as an American who knows our history, you're basically asking me to will myself out of existence. I didn't choose to be born here, and they didn't choose to be born there. I can accept that having a rave is insensitive, but the whole goddamned world is on fire. The ice caps are melting, microplastics are in everything, governments suck, and I can't really blame folks for wanting to do something besides watch the motherfucker burn.
Would you choose to go to a rave purposefully right outside the walls of a border detention camp? Do you have parking lot parties down at your local ICE facility? Throw a rager at the closest reservation?
And while the US led genocide is definitely not over, the people in Israel are so much more directly complicit with the furiously churning genocide of Palestine.
No, but I also wouldn't fucking murder people who went to that party either.
What if you were one of the inhabitants of the ghetto who had been treated like animals for decades?
Don't answer. There is no way for you to possibly know the suffering they have endured, and what a human might do in that scenario.
I can't know that experience, but what I do know is that there are many, many, many more Palestinians that also seem to share my understanding that murdering people is wrong, or else the Israeli civilian population would have a much bigger mess on their hands.
"Actually I'm just assuming shit about a subject that I don't have any deep meaningful knowledge of"
Thanks for the comment champ! We all appreciate that kind of spitballing about history and societal sentiments around here. In the future you could just shut the fuck up instead of trying to speak for Palestinians on the internet.
Not any worse than implying that every Gazan huddled in dark places praying for their lives under constant Israeli bombardment all support the murder of other people as payback
If I was being bombed by settlers, I would want them dead. Do not act like this is a purity fetish competition. Revenge is good.
You know, I'm 99% there with the message we're going with here. I think having a rave outside an open air prison is insane and deserving of scorn, and that the people who died there only had themselves to blame.
That said, I'm going to call bullshit on "revenge is good". Idk, I've been the "retributive justice is poison" guy on here for awhile, and made many posts here about it that have been mostly well received. So I'm going to put my foot down on actively celebrating revenge. Understanding the history and circumstances that cause it? Yes. Blaming Israel/the settlers for it and not Hamas? Yes. Continuing to support the Palestinian cause no matter what excesses take place? Absolutely yes.
"Revenge is good" though? No. Its a regrettable reality. People die in a revolution. Some people are going to be angry enough to go beyond what is purely pragmatically necessary. Its a thing thats going to happen no matter what we do, and we go on supporting the cause anyway. Revolutions are never clean. We accept and understand that, we don't celebrate it.
I'm sorry, but when I see posts like this I get worried. I do not like the idea of fighting a revolution alongside people who are just looking to kill people for revenge. Your motive should be making a better world. We kill because we have to, not because we want to.
I think some people on here read "We make no excuses for the terror" and saw it as license for bloodthirst. But to me, what Marx meant wasn't that we actively revel in commuting acts of terror, its that we recognize the necessity of it and do it because we have to.
You're reminding me of a Mao quote I halfway remember, something about not taking joy in the destruction and violence of a revolution, but recognizing that it's dirty but necessary. Someone smarter than me could probably fill in the blanks, but I agree with your post.
Mao agreeing with me is cool I'm going to tell my girlfriend.
Mao is famously quoted as saying "Hexbear user Autismdragon is cool, and fun to hang out with". Frankly, this is what inspired me to read more theory.
Revenge-driven actions have not historically worked out for the people taking their revenue in the long run for eitherthem nor the cause. I'm with the Palestinian diplomats and journalists putting the violence in context without saying its good.
I don't need deep, meaningful knowledge to know that spree shooting and raping bystanders is fucking wrong. A child knows that's wrong. An adult is just better at lying to themselves about it.
This isn't a spree shooting. It's a coordinated military action, where bystanders will get shot, because that is the nature of war, all wars. As for the raping of bystanders, we will see what the record says, but I highly doubt any claims coming from either the U.S. or Israeli media about that occurring. There have already been claims of beheadings and infant killings, none of which have been substantiated with evidence thus far, but all of this stuff smacks of 'oriental brown-skinned hordes' tropes. I have seen the videos of bystanders being shot, and I would be utterly shocked if they weren't being shot, especially given the usual Israeli treatment of bystanders, even during times of supposed 'ceasefire'.
However, comparing this to some sort of independent actor 'spree killing' like what occurs in the U.S. is some truly dense shit.
This is probably the most rational response I've received, thank you.
I can respect that the raping might be misinformation, but what about the kidnappings? IIRC, HAMAS has confirmed it alongside US and Israeli intelligence. And this is probably going to smack of bothsidesism, but I'm wildly unimpressed with the Israeli government's seeming policy of seeking to maximize collateral damage whenever possible. They're a bunch of shameless authoritarian fuckheads with no regard for life. I don't see it in a different light when HAMAS does it, though. I'm sure they have their reasons, but that's just it, any fool can justify murder to themselves; the Nazis weren't walking around telling themselves "wow, the Jews don't deserve this", and neither were the American military when they were leading the Native American genocide. Right now, the Israeli government's justification mill is running full tilt. I'm sure the CIA are masters of convincing themselves that they're justified in their actions. So, claims that it's justified ring a little hollow for me.
Is there any truth to the idea that there were off duty IDF present at the rave? IIRC, Israel is a conscription country, so I'm wondering if there's real truth there or if it's just that there's basically IDF members everywhere.
And your morality wasn't crafted while living your entire life in an outdoor prison while Israel targets civilians, your friends, and family every fucking day of your life. They don't have to play by better rules than the enormously equipped genocidal state. Shit sucks, but Israel has very predictably brought this upon themselves and no one should flinch at all when it comes to supporting Palestine over this, or else you never really did. This is how liberation is won, this time you're just seeing the reality of war through a cell phone.
Let me just go ahead and fail that purity test for you. It took me a long time to come to a conclusion about this subject and it wasn't fully cemented until this conflict broke out. Millions of Palestinians refuse to spill blood. The Israeli state has encouraged funding HAMAS as part of their long term plan to prevent two-state solution viability. You can't build liberation on the backs of dead bystanders any more than the Nazis or the US or the Jacobins did. "But it's justified when we do it, you just don't understand" is a bullshit rationale that's older than dirt and twice as worthless; Jesus, how many times must the CIA have said that very thing to themselves over the years?
Comparing people fighting for liberation to the CIA is some of the most galaxy brained shit I've ever seen.
It took me a long time to come to a conclusion about this subject
....
I don't need deep, meaningful knowledge
lol
lmao
for real though just stop what you're doing here. People are fighting for liberation and you have the ability to shut the fuck up from your cozy imperial core internet connection. You live in the country that has materially supported more genocide than any other in existence. Feel the urge to inject "but murder is bad" into the liberation struggle? Yeah, that's shut the fuck up time. You would condemn every liberation struggle in history with this shit.
You know, I always wonder about these type of comments. Are you someone who's actually lived the kind of experience you're speaking for, or are you comfortably sipping a coffee while you write out some performative outrage, smirk, and think "this comment will show them"?
youre in such a bubble you can't even imagine that the 'other' also have internet
And what would you recommend they do? Try to starve louder?
You know as an American you can join anticolonialism efforts. You didn't choose to be born in a settler colony but you can choose to resist it. You absolutely can and should involve yourself with anti-imperialism.
You shouldn't fall into nihilism. Things may seem hopeless, but we're not dead yet. Plenty of work to do.
They're commenting on a leftist forum, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that that indicates at least a desire to be involved in such things in the real world.
I have had some comments replying to me before, implying that what happened at the rave is what needs to and should happen to all colonists, because clearly I don't understand what decolonisation means (even though I am someone whose been involved in décolonisation activism in the past and at no point was my forced removal from North America or murder part of the discussion).
Haven't seen cries of misinformation or false flag at all. From the getgo the take has been yes it is brutal, but if anyone is to blame for Hamas' actions, it is those who created those circumstances: Israel and the western regimes that have supported it since its modern inception.
Palestine has a right to self determination against colonial settlers. A theocratic and violent response is what you get when you treat an opposing religion and ethnicity like animals for decades.
As such, we support them in their struggle.
Innocent bystanders don't attend raves in sight of history's largest concentration camp, I don't know what bizarre pseudo-morality you're working with but if you help glorify a modern-day Nazi ghetto you deserve whatever comes to you
I was saying it was justified from the beginning, idk what ya'll talking about
I like how we've gone from "false flag" and "misinformation"
I don't remember seeing anyone saying that. Could you link a handful of examples?
I hadn't seen anything on Hexbear or Lemmy but I did see it a few times on Twitter trying to find combat updates
Didn't plan ahead for the inevitable request for receipts, unfortunately. It was on one of the posts about the girl being taken off on motorcycle, some people were suggesting it was staged or actually Israelis doing it.
You don't think a tactical goal was acheived? I've gone out of my way not to talk about this because the whole thing literally makes me sick to my stomach, but this was absolutely a tactical victory for Hamas. No two ways about it, they got exactly what they wanted and I'm sure there's more to come
I know that tone can easily get lost in text, so I'll tell you that I'm genuinely curious. Would you be willing to explain what tactical goal was achieved specifically by attacking the rave?
Taking hostages, which are basically currency in negotiations. Also, the whole attack will likely upend the Israel-Saudi normalization process that undercut Palestinian leverage, it has made many Israelis doubt Netanyahu's ability to keep them safe, will probably reduce the number of new immigrants to Israel and cause some to leave, and the fallout from Israel's response will radicalize even more Palestinians leading them to support and join Hamas. It's a risky gambit, but doing nothing was also very risky for Hamas since Israel has been aggressively consolidating its power over the last few years and moving toward annexation and the elimination of any viable path toward Palestinian self-determination
Alright, got it. Yeah, risky seems like an understatement. Thanks for clarifying!
I like how we've gone from "false flag" and "misinformation" to "it was justified".
maybe on lemm.ee but we've been consistent on this the whole time
