Usually in relation to Uighur camps, the argument is "since you're in America you can't change whether they're concentration camps or education facilities, so you should just concentrate on the concentration camps within your own borders instead."

Like, motherfucker, I can have an opinion on the actions in another country and still work on changing things I can change.

I guess my question is, is this concentrate on what you can change part of some theory or strategy I haven't read or is it just bad and lazy?

In particular for China it's essentially conceding to the people who thinks there are millions of Uighurs being murdered, rather than attempt to engage and show that there is no evidence of that, and just what abouting.

  • abdul [none/use name]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Just come to China

    Here is a comment from the deleted sub by someone who did just that.

    They make it clear in the comment that they can’t speak to what’s going on in the camps, but I found what they had to share to be fairly interesting.

    So, I actually lived in Urumqi for a while, so this is one of the few areas where I can claim expertise. Here's what it's like:

    During Ramadan, people put up dark curtains so that the police can't see them eating before/after sunlight hours. There have been several purges of public servants for observing the holidays or wearing hijab.

    If you have facial hair/look like a Weizu, police will stop you on the street and ask for your identification. Your gate guards interrogate you at the entrance to your apartment. The guards at your workplace will stop you and ask, not for your name or what office you work in, but what your ethnicity is.

    If you look like a Uyghur, expect to be pulled over on the road, followed around in stores, and extensively questioned as to what you're doing there. Sound familiar?

    Despite a constitutional requirement for Uyghur representation, the party heads in Xinjiang are all Han Chinese. There are also constitutional protections for the Uyghur language, but the regional government is making sustained efforts to replace it with Mandarin. I was not around when they started the latest re-education efforts, so I can't speak to that.

    There are also a lot of fucked up things in the minority communities - like domestic violence and alcoholism and the usual problems that happen when one ethnic group feels squeezed out by another. But putting the blame on supposed "leaders" who live two continents away, whose influence is extremely curtailed by rigid internet controls, is idiotic at best and sycophantic at worst.

    • ItGoesItGoes [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      What a bunch of BS in that comment.

      Especially:

      During Ramadan, people put up dark curtains so that the police can’t see them eating before/after sunlight hours. There have been several purges of public servants for observing the holidays or wearing hijab.

      I haven't been in Xinjiang yet, but I highly doubt this. In China, I have been in many restaurants run by Uighur families, and I have seen the women of the family wearing the hijab, and celebrating Ramadan freely.

      Not to mention that in 西安 (XiAn) — one of the cities with most Muslims in China — you can also see girls wearing the hijab, hear the mosque's calls for prayer, etc.

      regional government is making sustained efforts to replace it with Mandarin. I was not around when they started the latest re-education efforts, so I can’t speak to that.

      Replaced? We can talk about mandarin gaining more importance due to obvious reasons (I mean, mandarin is gaining importance in Laos, and Laos is not a Chinese province), but replaced? Absolutely not; you can check it yourself by going to the Chinese TikTok (抖音), and seeing the Uighur community there (people speaking and writing in the Uighur language, news in their language, etc). I can share videos if someone is interested.

      the party heads in Xinjiang are all Han Chinese

      出生于1953年8月的少数民族高干雪克来提·扎克尔。作为维吾尔族，雪克来提·扎克尔曾长期在新疆工作，曾有近5年乌鲁木齐市长的任职经历，2008年，任全国人大民族委员会委员并兼任新疆生产建设兵团党委常委、副政委，2011年后任职副部长级全国人大民族委员会副主任委员，并不再兼任所有在疆职位。2年后重返新疆，晋升为正部级新疆维吾尔自治区人大常委会主任。

      I'm too tired to translate so here it's Google:

      Born in August 1953, the ethnic minority Gao Gan Xueklaiti Zaker. As a Uyghur nationality, Xuekeliti Zakr has worked in Xinjiang for a long time. He has served as the mayor of Urumqi for nearly 5 years. In 2008, he served as a member of the National People's Congress Committee of the National People's Congress and concurrently served as a member of the Standing Committee and Deputy Political Commissar of the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps. After 2011, he served as the deputy ministerial-level deputy chairman of the National People's Congress National Committee, and no longer concurrently holds all positions in Xinjiang. He returned to Xinjiang two years later and was promoted to minister-level director of the Standing Committee of the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region People's Congress.

      • 区人大主任：肖开提·依明 (شەۋكەت ئىمىن)
      • 区政府主席：雪克来提·扎克尔 (شۆھرەت زاكىر)
      • 区政协主席：努尔兰·阿不都满金 (نۇرلان ٴابىلماجىن ۇلى)

      Google again:

      • Director of the District People’s Congress: Xiao Kaiti Yiming
      • Chairman of the District Government: Sheklaiti Zakr
      • Chairman of the District Political Consultative Conference: Nurlan Abdumanjin

      If you look like a Uyghur, expect to be pulled over on the road, followed around in stores, and extensively questioned as to what you’re doing there.

      Because of my Arab origin I look like an Uighur, and that has not been my experience in China at all. More than one time I have been asked if I was an Uighur, the people who asked me were always friendly, and curious. And no, I haven't been followed by police. When I go to Xinjiang I will share my experience there.

      There are also a lot of fucked up things in the minority communities - like domestic violence and alcoholism and the usual problems that happen when one ethnic group feels squeezed out by another.

      I always find funny how white people (especially Americans) project, and apply what happens in their countries to the rest of the world. I'm talking about the myth of "Han supremacy". Look, in order to create some kind supremacist movement, first you need to create a narrative. This narrative is usually based on the discrimination of other groups because of their physical features. See, there are three things about China:

      (1) No such narrative exist, nor I has been created of promoted. (Not the case of truly supremacist states like America)

      (2) Most — if not all — ethnic groups in China are Asian or have Asian features (there are Asian looking Uighurs too), you can't tell apart a 回 from a 汉.

      (3) When people from two different ethnicities marry and have a kid, the parents most of the time choose that their kids belong to the ethnic minority. Why is this important? This is directly related with the point (2). There are so many mixes between people from different ethnic groups in China that the concept of ethnicity becomes something about culture and not race.

      Chinese don't care about ethnicities, they see all of them as Chinese. (At the end that's what they are)

      So, is there alcoholism or other problems? I'm sure, but I would say that it has more to do with material conditions (that are improving because of the Chinese government btw) than anything else.

      /---/

      To conclude, I will say the same I said in my original comment: don't believe me if you don't want, but don't believe others either. Want to know the truth? Feel free to visit China.

      • abdul [none/use name]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Thanks for sharing. That comment was from a while back, but it’s still good to hear your view point, even if you haven’t actually been to Xinjiang.

          • abdul [none/use name]
            ·
            4 years ago

            I was actually being sincere, but you’re welcome to believe otherwise.

            Edit: it just occurred to me that you probably didn’t bother to read the part of his comment where he says this:

            When I go to Xinjiang I will share my experience there.

              • abdul [none/use name]
                ·
                4 years ago

                I would say the former, since the latter admits twice that they haven’t actually been to the places the first guy was at.

                  • abdul [none/use name]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Not clear on what I said that you feel was a misrepresentation of anything

                          • abdul [none/use name]
                            ·
                            4 years ago

                            You’ve demonstrated in several comments here that you aren’t worth my time. For this reason, I’m not reading this comment or any further ones by you today. I can see you care a lot about this, but I gave you several chances and you failed me every time, and I gave up when your idea of misrepresenting the facts was giving more weight to a firsthand account of what’s occurring in Xinjiang over one occurring somewhere else entirely (even if I believe that person is speaking truthfully, which I do). If you want to better understand my point of view, you can reread what I already said, but I don’t see a point in engaging any further for the time being.

      • abdul [none/use name]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Where’s the line? I posted something someone posted sincerely (I contacted them later to follow up and they confirmed everything they said was true, or at the very least that they stood by it as the truth) and you transparently posted a lie to make a point. That’s not how this works. You need to address the claims as they are instead of attacking the medium or the source. I welcome you to provide evidence against the claims made in this comment.

          • abdul [none/use name]
            ·
            4 years ago

            It’s a primary source and eyewitness testimony. It’s your choice to believe it or not, but if your goal is to do anything other than jerk yourself off, you have to address it with evidence instead of just going “ok but what if hes lying”

              • abdul [none/use name]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Of course you don’t have to do anything, that’s what makes the country you live in so great 😉

                Just kidding, america sucks mad dick, but that’s beside the point

                All I’m trying to get across to you, is that all you are doing here is telling me you think the person is lying. This is your opinion, and you’re entitled to believe whatever you want. But if we want to get into the matter of truth and reality (also known as “facts”) you need to address the claims made and post evidence for why you believe those claims are factual or not.

                I have a feeling you’ll just keep rewording your belief that your opinion is a fact, so I’m not expecting much, but if you can disprove the claims with actual evidence, go ahead. If you can’t, consider the possibility that you are actually wrong and the impact of that line of thinking on the people who are actually in the camps.

                  • abdul [none/use name]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    It seems I have my first stalker. Interesting how the mods don’t seem to care. Anyway, I already told you the other day I’m done listening to you, but I guess I’ll spell it out for you here as well- stop replying to me. I don’t give a shit what you think, and I don’t appreciate being followed around from thread to thread.

      • abdul [none/use name]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Eh. He’s a writer, lots of writers go to China to teach English, I’m not looking to kink shame the guy. Just thought what he said was interesting.

          • abdul [none/use name]
            ·
            4 years ago

            All I did was share the guys comment. He seems credible to me and nothing youve scrutinized him over suggests otherwise, personally, but I recognize your rationale in disagreement.

                  • abdul [none/use name]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Your concern was that they weren’t here to be probed, so I told you that you can do what I did and talk to them directly. I take them posting on /cth/ as a sign of credibility, personally, but you’re welcome to disagree