But how exactly does a child consent to covering themselves up to protect their modesty? Children rely on their parents and schools to tell them what is right and what is wrong, what is true and what is false, they have no judgement that they develop on their own, there is no 5 year or 10 year old who voluntarily decides to wear hijab after doing their own research or something. Many of them agree to it because they have been convinced that their bodies must be hidden otherwise they are sluts who will burn in hell for eternity or because they have been made to believe that every strand of their hair that a man looks at will become giant snakes that will devour them as punishment. And let's not even get into the cases of all those children who despite all the brainwashing refuse to wear it and are abused mentally and sometimes physically to get them to comply.
So many of my friends used to take off their burqa when they got to class, and when their parents got wind of it they stopped allowing them to wear anything underneath the burqa when going to school. Anyways what I am trying to say that I can guarantee you no child who is doing this is doing it of their own volition, they have been mislead by the people they trust the most, and have been convinced of a very explicitly sexist and harmful narrative. Which is why I don't think it's unreasonable to postpone this practice until the child reaches adulthood and becomes capable of deciding for themselves.
I'm not arguing that children aren't forced to wear it. I'm Muslim and Roma, so headcoverings and extreme modesty are very enforced in my culture as well. I have seen a lot of the effects of it myself and with friends/family. But I do think a law like that would target Muslims and gypsies, as some of our kids wear a headscarf (not for modesty sake but it's a different tradition entriely). I don't know, I see it only going bad to have any laws regarding hijab in Europe. Maybe in an ideal world where Europeans aren't racist and islamophobic, but we aren't in that world. And then to even be fair, you'd have to extend the law to Christians who force modesty onto their kids even in lesser ways (forcing girls to wear only skirts, no shorts, no tank tops, etc and being told they'll burn in hell too if they don't comply). Would you agree those parents too should be punished under the law? Because it would be the same type of abuse, but white people won't see it that way. Only the bad people (Muslims and other nonwhite cultures) will be punished by such a law.
But again, as a Roma, i am so used to seeing our children taken away under false accusations of child abuse, so i am... weary of many laws.
Would you agree those parents too should be punished under the law?
I mean if it was only up to me then of course. But I think there is a huge gulf between being forced to cover one's satr, which even in the most liberal interpretation is one's whole body except for the hands, and being forced to wear more restrictive clothing. But I think I understand your point, which is that the enforcement of such a law will not be just, especially when the there is systematic prejudice at play, and that certainly makes sense. My perspective is narrow in this case, since I have not lived in the west.
The reason I am so adamant about it simply because from my experience somehow stopping people from being able to force this on children would save so many people, maybe not so many in the west.
Ah, yes I feel perhaps in countries where Muslims are the majority, such a law or idea would be more fitting. Or at least less likely to fuel oppression. I don't disagree that it could be a good idea as something to be enforced or considered, just moreso in the West (especially Europe) it would end up only in oppressing Muslims and others further.
But I appreciate your perspective on all this as well. It is a lot different in Eastern countries for sure, and I wouldn't have as many arguments against it if it wasn't in the context of a white-majority country if that makes sense.
But how exactly does a child consent to covering themselves up to protect their modesty? Children rely on their parents and schools to tell them what is right and what is wrong, what is true and what is false, they have no judgement that they develop on their own, there is no 5 year or 10 year old who voluntarily decides to wear hijab after doing their own research or something. Many of them agree to it because they have been convinced that their bodies must be hidden otherwise they are sluts who will burn in hell for eternity or because they have been made to believe that every strand of their hair that a man looks at will become giant snakes that will devour them as punishment. And let's not even get into the cases of all those children who despite all the brainwashing refuse to wear it and are abused mentally and sometimes physically to get them to comply.
So many of my friends used to take off their burqa when they got to class, and when their parents got wind of it they stopped allowing them to wear anything underneath the burqa when going to school. Anyways what I am trying to say that I can guarantee you no child who is doing this is doing it of their own volition, they have been mislead by the people they trust the most, and have been convinced of a very explicitly sexist and harmful narrative. Which is why I don't think it's unreasonable to postpone this practice until the child reaches adulthood and becomes capable of deciding for themselves.
I'm not arguing that children aren't forced to wear it. I'm Muslim and Roma, so headcoverings and extreme modesty are very enforced in my culture as well. I have seen a lot of the effects of it myself and with friends/family. But I do think a law like that would target Muslims and gypsies, as some of our kids wear a headscarf (not for modesty sake but it's a different tradition entriely). I don't know, I see it only going bad to have any laws regarding hijab in Europe. Maybe in an ideal world where Europeans aren't racist and islamophobic, but we aren't in that world. And then to even be fair, you'd have to extend the law to Christians who force modesty onto their kids even in lesser ways (forcing girls to wear only skirts, no shorts, no tank tops, etc and being told they'll burn in hell too if they don't comply). Would you agree those parents too should be punished under the law? Because it would be the same type of abuse, but white people won't see it that way. Only the bad people (Muslims and other nonwhite cultures) will be punished by such a law.
But again, as a Roma, i am so used to seeing our children taken away under false accusations of child abuse, so i am... weary of many laws.
I mean if it was only up to me then of course. But I think there is a huge gulf between being forced to cover one's satr, which even in the most liberal interpretation is one's whole body except for the hands, and being forced to wear more restrictive clothing. But I think I understand your point, which is that the enforcement of such a law will not be just, especially when the there is systematic prejudice at play, and that certainly makes sense. My perspective is narrow in this case, since I have not lived in the west.
The reason I am so adamant about it simply because from my experience somehow stopping people from being able to force this on children would save so many people, maybe not so many in the west.
Ah, yes I feel perhaps in countries where Muslims are the majority, such a law or idea would be more fitting. Or at least less likely to fuel oppression. I don't disagree that it could be a good idea as something to be enforced or considered, just moreso in the West (especially Europe) it would end up only in oppressing Muslims and others further.
But I appreciate your perspective on all this as well. It is a lot different in Eastern countries for sure, and I wouldn't have as many arguments against it if it wasn't in the context of a white-majority country if that makes sense.
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