Fishing, the sport, is cruel because it consists of baiting out a living being, puncturing its body with a sharp piece of metal, pulling it out of the water into the air as it suffocates, in order to take a picture of it, and then release it again.
Eating the fish is no less cruel, because people who fish often can eat food without causing harm to an animal.
Fishing as profession is cruel because it is doing the same, unnecessary harm to trillions of living beings each year, and affects our global food chain on a scale unfathomable to a normal person, exacerbating harm to the populations of entire species of fish and every animal that relies on those fish as a food source.
Any form of commercial hunting is unnecessary violence and cruelty, but fishing for sport is astoundingly so.
Fishing as profession is cruel because it is doing the same, unnecessary harm to trillions of living beings each year,
What do you propose the fishermen who survive solely from fishing do? I have been to multiple fishing villages, I don't know if there is an English term for that, and a lot of these people are living day to day in extreme poverty. Where they live they don't really have the luxury or choice to do anything else, there is no room to farm, there are only rivers. Also I don't think any of them have ever even considered the idea that fishing can be considered cruel, I don't think I could even explain the idea to them in any way that would makes sense to them.
Eating the fish is no less cruel, because people who fish often can eat food without causing harm to an animal.
Where I am from majority of the population suffer from malnutrition, specially protein deficiency, taking fish out of the diet, which is a very cheap source of protein compared to meat, would do incalculable harm to the most vulnerable people in society who live in extreme poverty. Even if you agree that harming fish is cruel, which I don't know if I do, it's not right to say people who eat fish have other choices. Many millions of them absolutely don't.
. It’s extremely frustrating as a vegan to say “hey, harvesting this particular animal product tends to have harmful outcomes” and then meat-eaters try to nitpick you by finding the most marginalized human being on earth who needs that animal product in some capacity to shame you as a privileged imperialist or something.
It's not very hard though. There's just so, so many subsistence fishers in the world. Of course it isn't good for them either that huge companies are destroying populations of fish with their massive nets. But that's the main problem, not them.
Of course it isn’t good for them either that huge companies are destroying populations of fish with their massive nets. But that’s the main problem, not them
It's literally the "you should stop using plastic straws to save the environment, sweaty." Argument, and it fucking pisses me off especially more when it's coming from someone who's far away and has literally zero clue what the material conditions are but want to dictate how others live based off of their arbitrary perceptions.
Yes I think I understand what you are saying, every argument that is made can only be fully understood within the context of the cultural experience of the person making it. And I am from what you would call a "third world" country, so when someone says fishing, I am not really thinking of the same thing that a western person is. So apologies if I misunderstood the concept entirely. That sort of mechanized and factory fishing is very rare where I am from, so I was thinking about millions of people who have been fishing for thousands of years in the many rivers of my country. I don't have the data to show it, but I am entirely certain the practice is very sustainable, since as I just mentioned these people have been doing it for thousands of years, their whole culture and custom is around fishing. They even have this very interesting collection of rhymes and songs that they pass down orally from generation to generation which contain valuable information regarding how to fish and when to catch what and stuff like that.
Poor subsistence fishermen will need some kind of alternative method of surviving/feeding themselves once we kill all life in the ocean, so I’d want to help them find other options even without the inherent cruelty of fishing.
Sorry maybe this is another cultural misunderstanding, but what you are saying sounds really callous to me. It's easy to say they have to find alternative method of survival, but how will they exactly? It's not like they are doing this for fun, it's a grueling existence, if they could do something else I am pretty certain they would be doing it already. This is the sort of statement the local capitalists make when they keep polluting the river and make fishing impossible, that these people need to find another line of work, without telling anyone what that work is exactly.
I am not saying it's your responsibility, I am not attacking you either. It's actually very encouraging to see people from rich capitalist countries embracing things like environmental conservation. I am just trying to explain to you that it's not possible for people to just stop doing the only thing they can to survive. There is no one who is waiting to give them jobs or an alternate way of living, if there was we could talk about how they are being cruel.
And if climate collapse does destroy their livelihoods completely that would be a disaster leading to the death of millions of them, and should we not instead try to stop that from happening instead of saying oh it's going to happen anyways so might as well disrupt their already precarious existence early?
All perspectives are welcome, I am here to learn all I can about the western leftist perspective. All my life I have organized only with people who are like me, think like me and grew up in the same culture as me, it's good to broaden my horizon.
What do you propose the fishermen who survive solely from fishing do?
Be provided government jobs through programs designed to eliminate fishing as an industry, perhaps through infrastructure that would also allow their communities to get produce shipments that would alleviate their communities from needing fishing to sustain themselves.
Eliminating these people's jobs without some action to lift them out of the poverty that keeps them tied to them is not necessary.
very cheap source of protein compared to meat,
Fish is meat, and phasing out the consumption and stripping of fish from our oceans and waterways should also come with government assistance to provide those people with an alternative nutritional food source, which we have an abundance of but currently feed to the farmed animals to cultivate meat.
Be provided government jobs through programs designed to eliminate fishing as an industry...
Fish is meat, and phasing out the consumption and stripping of fish from our government assistance to provide those people with an alternative nutritional food source
This would be great of course, but the problem is capitalist governments don't really care about their people, and these people, thanks to their poverty are completely alienated from the political process, they have no voice, they have no power, they cannot change the government.
Luckily a capitalist government is unlikely to make the move of banning all fishing, so there wouldn't be a situation where we do one without the other.
I'd say focusing on lifting people from poverty would always be the priority as a government moves left, so by the time we got to addressing animal rights and ecological damage we'd have given these people a viable alternative in their communities.
Any form of commercial hunting is unnecessary violence and cruelty
let's just be clear, eating meat from the store entails more violence and cruelty than hunting an animal that roams free for eleven months of the year.
You changed the argument from "it isnt cruel" to "what if you had to eat a fish to survive". I'm making fun of you because this shit is extremely tired.
I know that's exactly what I asked, you can read my initial comment. I said millions of people rely on fishing to earn a living, so I don't see how it is cruel? Also I don't understand why you are being so hostile to me.
But for 99.9% of people, it isnt necessary.
I am certain that's not true. What if I told you there are millions and millions of fishermen just in my country who rely on fishing for survival? And that they don't have any other options. I am just relaying my personal experience and trying to understand yours. I do understand that this is not what fishing is by and large in developed countries, where things have been industrialized to a harmful degree, but to deny there aren't millions and millions of fishermen all over the world who need to fish for a living is wrong.
How am I denying anything? All I said is fishing is cruel... not "wrong". Everyone here is already aware that pretty much everyone everywhere has to contribute to something awful in order to make money, and that's a completely seperate issue. Fishing and eating fish is not necessary for our health and well being, we do it because fish tastes good so theres a market for that. I'm not saying fuck people who fish, if anything vegans are saying the opposite since fishing is so dangerous to the people doing it, and damaging to the environments humans occupy. As if I should hate people forced work in slaughterhouses only to have their hands cut off and permanent ptsd.
I never claimed you are denying anything, I was just trying to understand your perspective on the matter, and I was presenting my perspective, and my perspective is that fishing is not cruel when people are fishing to earn a living, of course factory fishing excluded. When you replied to me by saying that I should put a hook in my mouth to understand why fishing is cruel, I thought you are saying that human lives have as much value as fish lives. I misunderstood, so apologies.
Everyone here is already aware that pretty much everyone everywhere has to contribute to something awful in order to make money, and that’s a completely seperate issue.
Ok, that is good to know and this is where probably the misunderstanding is stemming from. I am not very well acquainted with the culture of this site and what is considered common knowledge and what is not. Which is why I was simply trying to understand what the person who said fishing is cruel meant, that's all. I hope that's the end of the misunderstanding. Your clarification if much appreciated, and I agree with it too.
Fishing is not a sport. It's a profession for millions of working class people in the world. I don't see how it is cruel?
Fishing, the sport, is cruel because it consists of baiting out a living being, puncturing its body with a sharp piece of metal, pulling it out of the water into the air as it suffocates, in order to take a picture of it, and then release it again.
Eating the fish is no less cruel, because people who fish often can eat food without causing harm to an animal.
Fishing as profession is cruel because it is doing the same, unnecessary harm to trillions of living beings each year, and affects our global food chain on a scale unfathomable to a normal person, exacerbating harm to the populations of entire species of fish and every animal that relies on those fish as a food source.
Any form of commercial hunting is unnecessary violence and cruelty, but fishing for sport is astoundingly so.
What do you propose the fishermen who survive solely from fishing do? I have been to multiple fishing villages, I don't know if there is an English term for that, and a lot of these people are living day to day in extreme poverty. Where they live they don't really have the luxury or choice to do anything else, there is no room to farm, there are only rivers. Also I don't think any of them have ever even considered the idea that fishing can be considered cruel, I don't think I could even explain the idea to them in any way that would makes sense to them.
Where I am from majority of the population suffer from malnutrition, specially protein deficiency, taking fish out of the diet, which is a very cheap source of protein compared to meat, would do incalculable harm to the most vulnerable people in society who live in extreme poverty. Even if you agree that harming fish is cruel, which I don't know if I do, it's not right to say people who eat fish have other choices. Many millions of them absolutely don't.
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It's not very hard though. There's just so, so many subsistence fishers in the world. Of course it isn't good for them either that huge companies are destroying populations of fish with their massive nets. But that's the main problem, not them.
It's literally the "you should stop using plastic straws to save the environment, sweaty." Argument, and it fucking pisses me off especially more when it's coming from someone who's far away and has literally zero clue what the material conditions are but want to dictate how others live based off of their arbitrary perceptions.
So therefore, we should stop buying fish then?
Idk. More importantly there should be strict regulation of large scale fishing.
Like what? Lol
What do you mean "like what"?
Yes I think I understand what you are saying, every argument that is made can only be fully understood within the context of the cultural experience of the person making it. And I am from what you would call a "third world" country, so when someone says fishing, I am not really thinking of the same thing that a western person is. So apologies if I misunderstood the concept entirely. That sort of mechanized and factory fishing is very rare where I am from, so I was thinking about millions of people who have been fishing for thousands of years in the many rivers of my country. I don't have the data to show it, but I am entirely certain the practice is very sustainable, since as I just mentioned these people have been doing it for thousands of years, their whole culture and custom is around fishing. They even have this very interesting collection of rhymes and songs that they pass down orally from generation to generation which contain valuable information regarding how to fish and when to catch what and stuff like that.
Sorry maybe this is another cultural misunderstanding, but what you are saying sounds really callous to me. It's easy to say they have to find alternative method of survival, but how will they exactly? It's not like they are doing this for fun, it's a grueling existence, if they could do something else I am pretty certain they would be doing it already. This is the sort of statement the local capitalists make when they keep polluting the river and make fishing impossible, that these people need to find another line of work, without telling anyone what that work is exactly.
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I am not saying it's your responsibility, I am not attacking you either. It's actually very encouraging to see people from rich capitalist countries embracing things like environmental conservation. I am just trying to explain to you that it's not possible for people to just stop doing the only thing they can to survive. There is no one who is waiting to give them jobs or an alternate way of living, if there was we could talk about how they are being cruel.
And if climate collapse does destroy their livelihoods completely that would be a disaster leading to the death of millions of them, and should we not instead try to stop that from happening instead of saying oh it's going to happen anyways so might as well disrupt their already precarious existence early?
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All perspectives are welcome, I am here to learn all I can about the western leftist perspective. All my life I have organized only with people who are like me, think like me and grew up in the same culture as me, it's good to broaden my horizon.
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Be provided government jobs through programs designed to eliminate fishing as an industry, perhaps through infrastructure that would also allow their communities to get produce shipments that would alleviate their communities from needing fishing to sustain themselves.
Eliminating these people's jobs without some action to lift them out of the poverty that keeps them tied to them is not necessary.
Fish is meat, and phasing out the consumption and stripping of fish from our oceans and waterways should also come with government assistance to provide those people with an alternative nutritional food source, which we have an abundance of but currently feed to the farmed animals to cultivate meat.
This would be great of course, but the problem is capitalist governments don't really care about their people, and these people, thanks to their poverty are completely alienated from the political process, they have no voice, they have no power, they cannot change the government.
Luckily a capitalist government is unlikely to make the move of banning all fishing, so there wouldn't be a situation where we do one without the other.
I'd say focusing on lifting people from poverty would always be the priority as a government moves left, so by the time we got to addressing animal rights and ecological damage we'd have given these people a viable alternative in their communities.
Ok now I understand what you are saying, it's an aspirational goal not an immediate one. That's great 👍 .
If we fight hard enough they can all be immediate goals. :solidarity:
Holy shit it's a fish not a person.
"And that's why I do animal cruelty."
Maybe don't police people living off the land
There's a clear difference between living off the land out of necessity and fishing as a leisure activity.
let's just be clear, eating meat from the store entails more violence and cruelty than hunting an animal that roams free for eleven months of the year.
I would be surprised if someone to make the statement I did would argue against this.
Any kind of slaughter of a living being, or imprisonment to exploit it for some resource, is cruelty.
Why are vegans so insufferable
https://youtu.be/VizpLk263iM
Go fuck yourself
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I hope you don't think my life has as much value as that of a fish?
Sure try to change the argument
There's no argument, I am just trying to understand everyone's perspective. Surely it's ok for a human to eat a fish for survival?
WHAT IF YOU WERE ON AN ISLAND HUH????
I don't understand.
You changed the argument from "it isnt cruel" to "what if you had to eat a fish to survive". I'm making fun of you because this shit is extremely tired.
No, I think you misunderstood. What I am saying is how can it be cruel when people need to fish to survive?
Well that's not what you asked and it can obviously be cruel and necessary. But for 99.9% of people, it isnt necessary.
I know that's exactly what I asked, you can read my initial comment. I said millions of people rely on fishing to earn a living, so I don't see how it is cruel? Also I don't understand why you are being so hostile to me.
I am certain that's not true. What if I told you there are millions and millions of fishermen just in my country who rely on fishing for survival? And that they don't have any other options. I am just relaying my personal experience and trying to understand yours. I do understand that this is not what fishing is by and large in developed countries, where things have been industrialized to a harmful degree, but to deny there aren't millions and millions of fishermen all over the world who need to fish for a living is wrong.
How am I denying anything? All I said is fishing is cruel... not "wrong". Everyone here is already aware that pretty much everyone everywhere has to contribute to something awful in order to make money, and that's a completely seperate issue. Fishing and eating fish is not necessary for our health and well being, we do it because fish tastes good so theres a market for that. I'm not saying fuck people who fish, if anything vegans are saying the opposite since fishing is so dangerous to the people doing it, and damaging to the environments humans occupy. As if I should hate people forced work in slaughterhouses only to have their hands cut off and permanent ptsd.
I never claimed you are denying anything, I was just trying to understand your perspective on the matter, and I was presenting my perspective, and my perspective is that fishing is not cruel when people are fishing to earn a living, of course factory fishing excluded. When you replied to me by saying that I should put a hook in my mouth to understand why fishing is cruel, I thought you are saying that human lives have as much value as fish lives. I misunderstood, so apologies.
Ok, that is good to know and this is where probably the misunderstanding is stemming from. I am not very well acquainted with the culture of this site and what is considered common knowledge and what is not. Which is why I was simply trying to understand what the person who said fishing is cruel meant, that's all. I hope that's the end of the misunderstanding. Your clarification if much appreciated, and I agree with it too.
Sorry for my unnecessary hostility, I assumed you were one of the fuck vegans people here, which seems to be almost everyone.
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