I’ve seen enough from the chapos to make me think all of them aside from amber are not class reductionists (aside from the self hating weirdo shit amber says) and none of them are racists (especially Matt). Why do they want to be associated with assholes like Sean McCarthy? I’ve been a leftist and an anti fascist for like ten years now, the left is supposed to beat the shit out of these dorks, not quasi cater to them like this Sean dude and Others on that side of Twitter.
Sucks to see Will and the others associate with that piece of shit.
Just because they hate neoliberals doesn’t mean fascist neckbeards are our friends. They’d gladly me have my Jewish ass gassed in heart beat
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Bro what?
Absolutely not. There are people who legitimately believe class is all that matters and is all that should be focused on by the left. To me, this attitude is fucking disgusting and spits on Ideas like Black Lives Matter and the LGBTQ movement. It’s gross, I have no ‘superiority complex’ I just think we owe it to marginalized groups to stand up for issues they bring up and their specific concerns. Anti-fascism and anti-racism /anti bigotry are going to continue to be parts of the left, frankly whether people like you like the fact or not. I also never said amber was racist lol, just that she leans and is probably a class reductionist and I’ll be honest, she sucks imo. I don’t like her analysis. I don’t want to be marching alongside Insane fascists just because they’re ‘class conscious’. That’s not ‘left’ IMO
For the record I am no fasc or racist or apologist for them. To the mod who removed my comment wtf, just why? I agree we should take up marginal groups demands. I also think that the best way to do that is through UNIVERSAL Class based programs are the way to do that. For instance should we not fight for Medicare for all because Republicans will also benefit? Class struggle is a struggle for all oppressed classes and that includes racial religious and sexual identity groups disproportionately. This is mostly an argument of messaging and strategy.
I don’t think you’re a fascist or racist apologist. I just disagree with your idea of left praxis I think. I absolutely think class based politics are cornerstone of the left, I just also believe that addressing other forms of injustice are also important to the left and I don’t believe class politics only is adequate enough to address all these injustices. I would also never advocate against Medicare for all just because some chuds would benefit, that’s fucking stupid.
I believe in addressing all forms of injustice is extremely important too. But I also believe that leftist politics have to be prioritized and it's the left's collective responsibility to articulate those ideas politically to the poorest and least educated among us, as that is who we presume to care about. Once again I just think that this is a false dichotomy. Class politics, when done right are racial politics are sexual identity politics.
Than don't say that class reductionists don't exist? There are a ton of "leftists" who call themselves class first and disregard race/sex/etc as boutique issues. Sean McCarthy is a particularly monstrous version of this, but Amber and the other Chapos do this kinda shit all the time. If you think it's a bad term because class is inherently racialized and you can't meaningfully separate them, than just say that.
Look I don't know who Sean McCarthy is, so I'm not defending him. The chapo's and many other public intellectuals being accused of class reductionism pretty much have the same view I just articulated. Yet, this intended smear of class reductionism is still used against them for prioritizing mass based politics and universal programs as a remedy for racial disparities etc.; and that's what I disagree with. It seems like an argument made in bad faith.
It's not a "smear" when they have on Matt Tiabbi to complain about PC culture not letting him talk about how violent BLM protesters are. Just because they'll claim they support an intersectional class analysis doesn't mean they consistently do, and just because libs will latch onto this criticism in bad faith doesn't mean it's not true.
Amber.
McCarthy and to a lesser extent Amber's class reductionism is largely a backlash to the weaponization of identity politics by liberals. Hillary said in 2016 that breaking up the big banks won't stop racism - that kind of cynicism creates a backlash. I find McCarthy's humor to be really off putting, I'm not a fan of him, but I understand the rationale behind his behavior.
The Adolph Reed/DSA controversy is a perfect example of the class reductionism charge used to prevent an actual conversation on class and intersectionality. I just don't know how anyone can look at the history of America and argue that only when racial wounds are healed will true class solidarity begin. The white backlash to any kind of progress for minorities is well documented. As leftists we should be using history to interpret the near future with the goal of achieving political power. The only way to achieve political power is via a broad and class based coalition. A high tide lifts all boats. Those who are struggling the most will be benefit the most from universal programs.
As much as I would love for true and life changing reparations to be a thing, it just won't happen with just a reactionary white working class. And some cynically use horrors perpetrated to minorities as justification to deny universal and redistributive programs to poor whites. Instead of a rising tide, they argue for a lower tide targeting poor whites. Punishing people isn't the goal here. Taking profit out of the equation is the goal.
So like I get the cynicism, but it's interpreted and projected in such a non-helpful way by Mccarthy.
I’m not saying universal policies are always bad, I’m simply saying things like Black Lives Matter and Antifascism are important parts of the left that should never be disregarded. The left he always stood up against any form of injustice and oppression , I do not think that should end so we can focus only on universal class policies. Different oppressed groups have different needs that need to be addressed and stood up for. To me, it seems easy to disregard that kind of stuff if you’re an upper middle class spoiled white kid, but it’s rather impossible when you belong to you one of these out groups to get behind ideas like allying with boogaloo boys because they are class conscious.
Kind of upset you literally laughed about my concerns towards rising fascism and how it would probably effect people like me, that was not cool.
Think I’m going to exit this conversation and pretend I blocked you somehow.
Edit: I also remember reading you post that you weren’t familiar with Sean really?
So you think universal policies are sometimes bad? I'm super confused as to what your ideology is. The entire leftist project is anti-capitalist in nature, capitalism requires misery at the bottom. The system is designed to immiserate minorities. No one is saying BLM is useless or unnecessary. The multi-racial makeup of BLM is one of the few things giving me hope for a better future.
I don't think any leftist disagrees with this, the only difference of opinion is tactical. Do we achieve this via means tested programs, or universal programs? Because means tested programs don't have a long shelf life. Look at the groups that benefit the most from universal programs - it is always poorest, which is usually always minority groups.
Overall I'm just confused as to your thinking.
Not really wanting to entertain this discussion anymore tbh. My thinking is that class is absolutely important and a pillar leftism, but so are things like anti-fascism and other forms of resistance against bigotry and hatred. The people who were in Portland and counter protesting in Charlottesville are as leftist as you can get IMO. Putting their bodies on the line against deranged genocidalc?maniacs to show resistance to mortifying and ugly ideas.
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Amber.
It doesn't matter if they are just reacting to liberal idpol or whatever, they are engaging in the exact same aestheticization of politics as the people they are supposedly failing against and are obfuscating class. This is how you get shit like Glenn Greenwald claiming that Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson are socialists.
Hard disagree, it does matter because, as I stated in my original comment, liberals are weaponizing identify to argue against redistributive policies.
Can you explain this thought a bit more? I don't quite understand the point, but I'd like to.
Glenn and Taibbi are two more who have replaced ideology with grievances. It's an inherently reactionary kind of thinking and bizarre. Best to ignore them.
This
Sure, just not open fascists or bigots. We must stand against these people with everything we have and not move a fucking inch. It’s cliche, but people’s right to exist is never on the fucking table to the left
Totally agree with this
Amber.
As evidenced by that DailyBeast article from last week that had CIA fingerprints all over it
Hit the nail on the head
Lol no he didn’t. We shouldn’t just ignore the obvious genocidal derangement fascists have and pal around with them just because they’re class conscious
Bro I've been cultivating mass for years idk what you're on about