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After Gary Hobish collapsed while swing-dancing with friends in Golden Gate Park Sunday, a fellow dancer raced to the nearby de Young Museum in search of a defibrillator. Most people in the group knew Hobish, 70, had a heart condition. Seconds counted.

Inside the museum, Tim O’Brien found himself pleading with a staff member to let him use the life-saving device, or to accompany him back to where Hobish, a legend of the Bay Area music scene, lay unconscious. O’Brien offered the museum staffer his wallet and his watch as collateral.

The museum staffer checked with his boss, but the answer was firm: The de Young defibrillator could not leave the building.

O’Brien sprinted empty handed back to the group, where a doctor who had luckily been on the scene was administering CPR. Paramedics arrived a few minutes later, but by then nearly 10 minutes had gone by, O’Brien said.

But I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends

  • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
    hexbear
    106
    edit-2
    8 months ago

    Was there an ethical obligation to share the defibrillator?

    The answer is not obvious.

    Next paragraph.

    Officials and experts said there was apparently no legal obligation for the de Young to share the device.

    They highlighted several complicating considerations: What if the staffer had lent it out, and minutes later someone at the museum collapsed and needed it, they asked. And why should he lend it quickly to a distressed stranger, not knowing if it was a thief trying to make off with a device that usually costs around $2,000?

    What if two people at the museum collapse at the same time and require defibrillating? What if the thief actually needed that money to save 3 lives?

    I know what motherfucker ghostwrote this drivel.

    • Wertheimer [any]
      hexagon
      hexbear
      83
      edit-2
      8 months ago

      What if, while we were using the fire extinguisher, a different fire broke out? We'd better not use it at all.

      "A person dying of heart failure is a person dying of heart failure, but the mystery box could be anything. It could even be a person dying of heart failure!"

    • @HornyOnMain
      hexbear
      26
      8 months ago

      What if the staffer had lent it out, and minutes later someone at the museum collapsed and needed it

      Doing morshupls to explain that the life of the old man dying outside is outweighed by the incredibly low risk to the life of a paying customer centrist

    • iridaniotter [she/her, they/them]
      hexbear
      17
      8 months ago

      Love it when my mode of production acts as a fetter against attaining the post-conventional stage of moral development, a stage that adults are supposed to achieve.

    • UlyssesT [he/him]
      hexbear
      15
      8 months ago

      What if no one involved ever consented in advance to being born and their lives are presumed to be unnecessary suffering anyway? morshupls

  • NeelixBiederman [he/him]
    hexbear
    87
    8 months ago

    "I would rather someone die than risk breaking an arbitrary rule that carries no consequences" - America, 2023

    • Assian_Candor [comrade/them]
      hexbear
      42
      8 months ago

      Yep you gotta take it. “A man outside is dying. I am taking this. Call the cops if you want but you aren’t stopping me.”

      • SoyViking [he/him]
        hexbear
        17
        edit-2
        8 months ago

        There is a non-zero change the cops would have shown up and shot the Samaritan, the person with the heart attack and the defibrillator.

        • TheCaconym [any]
          hexbear
          10
          8 months ago

          As well as any dogs in a ~100 meters radius

    • TheCaconym [any]
      hexbear
      28
      8 months ago

      It wouldn't have crossed my mind to even ask in the first place to be honest, just grab it.

  • bumblebeehellbringer [fae/faer, they/them]
    hexbear
    65
    8 months ago

    This is what happens when society is centered around profit. The need of the institution to avoid liability, potential liability, is put higher than a person's life. The staff member probably feared they'd lose their job or be retaliated against if they made a real decision. The boss made a choice to defend the institution at any cost.

    What a fucked up system.

    Life saving necessities are right there and they're systematically denied to the ones who need them. We have enough housing to house the homeless. We have enough food to feed the hungry. We have enough medicine to heal the world. Yet doing all these things is a threat to profit, and so instead we feed bodies into the profit grinder, and the capitalists become rich and powerful on their blood.

  • came_apart_at_Kmart [he/him, comrade/them]
    hexbear
    61
    8 months ago

    “We are deeply saddened to learn about the death of Gary Hobish in Golden Gate Park,” museum Director of Communications Helena Nordstrom said in emails to the Chronicle. “We don’t know exactly what happened and are trying to determine the facts.

    “We don't permit technical equipment beyond laptops to leave the building without permission. Then again, the event has prompted us to review the museums’ emergency response procedures for events that may occur outside the museum premises in the future so we can be as helpful as possible.”

    • do not admit responsibility of any kind ("we are sorry" can be interpreted an admission of guilt).
    • do not admit even a cursory understanding of the reported sequence of events that took place
    • investigate internally
    • imply internal examination of policies

    CYA, the most american of moves.

    any building open to the public and hosting an organization that has received > 1 cent of public assistance, tax credits, in-kind contributions or anything i'm not thinking of should be required to have these and make them available to anyone who asks. it should just be baked into the "cost of doing anything" like potable water, stable structures or other features of public safety. $2k ain't shit. hell, we pay cops 3x that a month in the most podunk ass towns to take naps in their cars and shoot pets.

    • UlyssesT [he/him]
      hexbear
      44
      8 months ago

      We are deeply saddened

      We don't permit technical equipment beyond laptops to leave the building without permission

      This is Hague-worthy "suffering and death are okay if they follow the posted rules" shit.

    • VILenin [he/him]
      hexbear
      19
      8 months ago

      I don’t care if the defibrillator is a 100 year old antique worth a billion dollars on private property, or should still be accessible to anyone.

  • FlakesBongler [they/them]
    hexbear
    58
    8 months ago

    Pardon my ignorance on the subject, but WHO THE FUCK STEALS A DEFIBRILLATOR? IS THERE SOME SORT OF UNDERGROUND BLACK MARKET FOR DEFIBRILLATORS OF WHICH I AM UNAWARE?

    • Wertheimer [any]
      hexagon
      hexbear
      43
      8 months ago

      We might need to start one to defend ourselves

      • FlakesBongler [they/them]
        hexbear
        25
        8 months ago

        Start up a street gang where we use defibrillators in a series of radical crimes

      • SpasmodicColon [he/him]
        hexbear
        21
        8 months ago

        Can you imagine?

        "Listen up mother fucker, give me your wallet or I'll defibrillate you! Just come over here, open your shirt, let me apply these electrodes, wait for the thing to start.... bypass the onboard software that says you're not out of rhythm and thus it will not send a charge..."

        • FlakesBongler [they/them]
          hexbear
          11
          8 months ago

          I'm just picturing running around with one of those hospital crash carts, supercharging myself like Jason Statham in Crank

          • SpasmodicColon [he/him]
            hexbear
            10
            8 months ago

            I'm imagining Robert Evens fighting the FDA with an arsenal of defibrillators from his compound, juiced up and raring to go

    • FoolishFool [she/her]
      hexbear
      6
      8 months ago

      The same people who go to Rainbow Parties and participate in The Knockout Game.

  • Saoirse [she/her, comrade/them]
    hexbear
    36
    8 months ago

    If I could teach every spineless American liberal one thing with the snap of my finger it is that STEALING IS EASY AND MORALLY CORRECT IN MANY SITUATIONS.

  • 2Password2Remember [he/him]
    hexbear
    35
    8 months ago

    The museum staffer checked with his boss, but the answer was firm: The de Young defibrillator could not leave the building.

    ethics without morals strikes again

    Death to America

    • DayOfDoom [any, any]
      hexbear
      3
      edit-2
      8 months ago

      Trying explaining this to the bugboys that lurk the site.

  • HumanBehaviorByBjork [any, undecided]
    hexbear
    35
    8 months ago

    i realize it is a feature of the communist's worldsickness to hear this and think "this is because capitalism," but i cannot think of another reason that multiple people could be told "there is an urgent medical emergency and we need the tiniest bit of help from you" and reply "that's not my problem, plus i could get in trouble."

    • Saoirse [she/her, comrade/them]
      hexbear
      22
      edit-2
      8 months ago

      Slavish, mewling deferance to law and authority runs deeper in the American than even the capitalist ideology.

      Legalism and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human species.

      • Mardoniush [she/her]
        hexbear
        2
        8 months ago

        No one has accused the Soviet Union of lacking legalism, and yet the thought of this happening there is impossible.

    • Venus [she/her]
      hexbear
      3
      8 months ago

      As someone who has been "in charge" on a site where there's a defibrillator and had absolutely no training regarding it, I feel for the museum staff a bit. The one I'm familiar with was covered in warnings that amount to "absolutely do not open this box unless you are currently speaking with a medical professional who is telling you to do so" so I can't say for sure what I'd do if a random person ran in and told me they needed to take it elsewhere. Sitting around now I can logically see, yeah, better to just let them take it and deal with the consequences than risk someone dying because I didn't, but it's not quite as easy when you're suddenly thrust into that situation out of nowhere while you're trying to get your work done and thinking about what you're going to make for dinner

    • charly4994 [she/her, comrade/them]
      hexbear
      18
      8 months ago

      Maybe it's because I work in healthcare, but the idea of just saying "no, you can't have this life saving device" makes no sense. Dude was ready to hand over everything he had on him to just get the device. There was an incident at work where we noticed a man had fallen on the sidewalk just outside our unit, two of the nurses went to check on him while I stayed on the unit. They helped him get up and got him over to a bench. He did not want any help or an ambulance to be called but eventually we'd hear from the supervisor "technically it puts us at risk of liability because he's not our patient." Nobody was punished for it because nobody would really go and say "you see someone in distress, you do nothing." They went and helped and I made sure that should something have happened on the unit, I was ready to immediately respond.

      I would imagine that Good Samaritan laws would shield the nurses that went outside because they went and assisted to the best of their ability, but I have no idea how the organization would be held liable potentially.

  • bumblebeehellbringer [fae/faer, they/them]
    hexbear
    16
    8 months ago

    Reminds me of the kids who were punished for saving their classmates from asthma attacks. One was punished for "sharing a controlled substance", an inhaler, and the other was punished for carrying a kid to the nurse after the teacher told the class to stay in their seats while she waited for an email response from the nurse, even after the kid had collapsed on the floor from minutes of not being able to breathe. https://archive.is/xwnju

    • D3FNC [any]
      hexbear
      7
      8 months ago

      Dang didn't even him em with the practicing medicine without a license, or a controlled substance distribution charge? Have we learned nothing from the war on drugs, come on guys this is day one Kamala Harris SF ADA boot camp material