I’m done with my schtick that AOC is good or bad depending on the day.

She’s taking money from young progressives who want her to primary conservative dems and giving it directly to conservative dems like Conor Lamb... lmao.

She also gave money to CIA spook Abigail spanbergler who has publicly and privately talked shit about her repeatedly... lol

I didn’t realize her descent into being awful would be this quick. Wonder what her associated orgs are doing? Will justice dems just fizzle out or be wrapped into the establishment?

Yikes all around.

                • Pezevenk [he/him]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  How is it so difficult to understand that racism and sexism play a major role in discourse because we live in a racist and sexist society?

                  If you wanna talk about generalities, sure. But we're not talking generalities, we're talking about why a specific subset of people has a specific opinion on a specific person. The same exact arguments were made by Hillary stans to handwave any criticism as "it is just because of sexism, there is no other conceivable reason to dislike her".

            • Pezevenk [he/him]
              ·
              4 years ago

              They may be able to tell you he marched with MLK and voted against the Iraq war.

              Soooo don't you see how this maybe matters for how they evaluate him?

    • machiavellianRecluse [none/use name]
      ·
      4 years ago

      I do wonder how much of the constant hate she gets is because of the color of her skin. People criticize Bernie and get upset with decisions he makes, but still show some support

      It could have some effect but AOC is a more prominent figure in twitter and twitch sphere in terms of appearance. So terminally online people will prefer to go after the terminally online more often lol. Also yeah Bernie sucks too but now I tend to think this (AOC, Bernie, Nitya Raman, etc) is all a result of a lack of a mass party which could impose some party discipline and principles as opposed to depending on the quixotic quest of a rag tag bunch of politicians to save the world (where these people make compromises for their careers or minor gains). With the backing of a growing movement/party they would feel more comfortable being belligerent for longer.

        • machiavellianRecluse [none/use name]
          ·
          4 years ago

          don’t buy that it’s some cult of personality that she’s online, they’re online, so they condemn her more. It’s just racism and sexism.

          I am not as online so I will accept it for now. In conversations with people I tend to criticize her more because she is brought up more often.

          Hmmm the way you phrase it is interesting. Germany had both a strong labour movement and a party. They failed miserably. I am not sure how a labor movement can work in America. Where is the space to organize all uber drivers? What kind of organization can bring in people from students and in atomised fields into the process to seize state power? Also why completely tie our hands behind our backs and say no to only politics, yes to labor organizing. Why can't we have a party of labor which has people in amazon warehouses forming unions and people also helping people elected if nothing else to give them a pulpit to get more people to join the party? (This is all pie in the sky but anyway).

          I do agree that labor needs to be combative, if we are being idealistic I would say that instead of demanding for what they want they should seize state power.

            • machiavellianRecluse [none/use name]
              ·
              4 years ago

              We don’t have the organizing currently to have a new party and a new party doesn’t just create organizing, in fact one could argue it take valuable resources and people away from it.

              I see lemme see if I understand you correctly: You think it is easier to get socialists elected as democrats (the DSA or our revolution strat) as opposed to get organizing groups together to form an electoral party. I can see your reservations about doing it nationally but I would think that new york state in a year or so could basically try to make all its DSA candidates switch into a new party. Maybe Nevada too. I have 0 idea if that is the goal because from what I understand even at the local level there is no fealty to the organization. No voting in blocks. Just find good people which are good. Which is nice but why not try to get them to form a fist?

              Anyway re forming a new party, I imagine the idea would be to get enough local orgs together to form a coalition. I am also fine for this 'party/coalition' to run people as democrats while keeping these people rooted to this now org so they can be thrown out and loose the support of grassroots organizers who share a vision with the org and not just this person's campaign. DSA could do this, I have no idea why it doesn't (well ok I kinda do they have no mechanisms in place to enforce that kind of discipline).

                • machiavellianRecluse [none/use name]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  In my DSA there’s not even a labor organizing caucus and the people who helped elect one of the local socialists want to start a new party without even thinking to include BIPOC in the discussion.

                  Lol I see. Yeah that sounds very amateurish. To me forming a new party was more like bringing in a lot of DSA chapters, unions, mutual aid groups, etc together in a conference to form points of unity in a state and then maybe try to have a congress to sell them the idea of forming a coalition.

                  Learn to organize labor first. We ain’t going to start a revolution through voting in enough socialists. Although that will help, elected officials are not organizers and frankly they don’t have the time or capacity to fight the daily struggles of labor.

                  How can uber drivers help with this? Students? Software engineers? Immigrants? People which are in 20 odd time jobs? The reason I said this is because I am not in a position to organize labour. That may be a very important task, thankfully amazon workers can do it themselves. Maybe we can try to form support networks and funds but is that all? I know Russia is not America but Lenin was confronted with similar questions and had come down with the opinion that organizing the movement under the banner of a single political party is the most important task at hand (this is around 1901 I think). Not saying we dogmatically copy him. The conditions in the two countries are very different but he had very compelling arguments for this imo and of why just labour organizing (while supremely important) is not enough to draw more people and bring more tactics into the movement.

                  You could read 'where to begin?' and 'what is to be done?', they are pretty nice. I have just been thinking a lot about it in context of the work that I have been doing so far.

                  Edit: Fair warning Lenin writes too much like a poster which can make him entertaining to read but a lot of his stuff is just dunks. I found a lot of actionable things to think about in them tho so I would still recommend giving it a read :)