Hear me out: I am a leftist. Don't ban me - this is something i've been thinking about quite a bit recently.
I mean, at a macro level comparing the far left to the alt-right -- we seem to be a lot more focused on egalitarianism (while disagreeing on the means to that end). The alt-right seems to be focused on creating an ethno state, pretty much. Comparing them, the morality clearly skews towards our direction.
However, what concerns me is how we (you and i) are further insulating ourselves into message boards. When I first think about insulation, what comes up to my mind are those idiots who get brainwashed by alt-right facebook propaganda. They interact with it, then that's all they see on their wall, and all of a sudden they are in an echo chamber. We've all heard about these and know how bad they are.
My first thought is: "Oh, well, I'm educated and I read books and theory. I'm not like them. Alt righters are just dumb ass facebook moms who haven't read a book in years."
My second thought is: "Oh, shit. I'm insulating myself JUST like them, though."
I don't know. I'm just kind of conflicted. Left ideologies aren't morally bad, unlike alt-righters. But, at the same time we are creating an echo chamber, just like how /r/thedonald did with thedonald.win -- after we both got banned by a traditional news outlet.
What are the effects of that? Is this good or bad?
From a sociological perspective, society is being siloed and fractured/polarized by... the internet. It's a function of being able to choose your own media, all the time. During the Age of Spoken Word, you only heard what there was to hear. For much of the history of empire, this has been stories told by bards, paid by kings. In the modern era, state propaganda and corporate media reigned, and their narratives were the only ones you heard on your radio and in your newspaper.
Bam. The internet. We choose every little story we see. And we choose them largley through social media agreggators: and we choose those too.
Suddenly you're a lot less likely to think like your next door neighbour does. This isn't inherently good or bad, and neither is participating in online communities. But is does have effects, whether left or 'right', and you're right to point them out.
It's harder to disagree now; we're used to only agreeing, or disagreeing over minute differences. This has real, measurable impacts on social trust and societal cohesion.
But probably the biggest impact, that scares me the most: we can't even agree on a basic, shared set of facts right now.
Talking to 5 random people on the street now is now likely to reveal 5 fundamentally different understandings of reality, and epistemology (how we know what to believe). It's hard when half the people think that 5g is aliens who invented corona to put on the facemask blah blah blah.
That's the scary piece to me: siloing in communities has made us extremely vulnerable to having our worldview divorced from material reality. This has, of course, always been true; hence the materialist focus of Marxism.
But I think it's increasing, and I don't know what's gonna stop it. One point of optimism: communtiies like this exist that are materialist and rational, which self-correct beliefs and can actually get people more in tune with reality, even if much of the internet is doing the opposite.
Thanks for the food for thought, comrade, and much love :red-fist:
But also talking about being an insular community and its effects on us is what separates us from communities like the_donald.
Ya, this open-minded self-crit is really a fundamental difference, that generates many huge differences :)
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Mhm. When I was younger, I would have conversations with chud neighbours and just... disagree. They'd say the same old bad stuff, and I'd just suck it up and respond the best I could. Now, basically, I'm a lot more emotionally reactive to bad ideas, just on a physiological level, and I'd guess it's because my overton window, my sense of what is 'normal' to hear has been so tailor-made lately. I don't think they're wrong anymore so much as I think they're wrong to say it, and my heart races.
The flip side is that I'm more free to expand my perspective without 'the cop in my head', or that 'real-world community moral voice' that one internalizes, telling me 'no' to good leftist thoughts as I examine them. So it's give and take, good and bad... but I really gotta up my 'listening to libs' game again; I guess that's why I come here. LMAO GET DUNK'D ON hahahaha ;)
:chavez-salute: :af-heart:
Part of this is the shift from seeing politics as a lively spectator sport to seeing politics as a series of decisions that can and do kill people.
That's a really great point. In my earlier years, I would look at things like funding for social programs like social assistance or health care through a more detached, philosophical lens. That changed pretty quickly as I became more worldly and learned that every time some conservative shit-head politician cuts funding pretty much anywhere, real actual humans die; and the conservative politicians know that.
It's not all the change in discourse as time passes; it's also that I've changed, as I continue to wake up to the fact that I, we, are living in a class war. And it's time to start waging it.
Of course... sometimes that looks like being reasonable, and speaking with people from where they are at. It's a double-bind. Luckily we all have comrades online to talk through these things with :) :red-fist:
Yeah I don't know what to do about this. When I try to discuss current events with my parents I end up actively disliking them and viewing them as morally deficient people. It's unpleasant. The reality is they're no worse than most Americans which means I'm left out as the oddball.
I wish it were easier for me to have discussions with people and not come away from it thinking they're morally reprehensible. When they're mostly just ignorant and tribal -- which is a universal human condition. At the same time, I have to acknowledge that people on the right will also come away from a discussion with me thinking I'm the morally reprehensible one. And they'll think I'm the one who's ignorant. Etc.
I would never claim the have The Answer to something so big like this, but I do have a thought I think might help.
When this happens, I try (and usually fail) to think:
To what extent do any of us really choose our beliefs? Even leftists, whose whole shtick is to be self-critical, and to learn from evidence etc. But imagine everyone else!
We're speaking in a language we didn't choose, in a place we didn't choose. We grew up around people and ideas we didn't choose.
We're out here to combat, and to change ideas. The people holding those beliefs are, in some ways, more of a side-effect than the cause, if you zoom out enough.
That helps me be more ok with reactionary beliefs in the people close to me, which includes myself. Food for though . :af-heart:
I think that's true most of the time, so I agree with you. I just wish it were more helpful to my situation.
Unfortunately I'm dealing with people who tell me dangerous factually incorrect nonsense ("COVID-19 will disappear the day after the election", literally, or "there are no hospitals in FL that have run out of ICU beds, it's all hype"). I make arguments against it or send them links supporting my case but they continue to believe in the factual nonsense without engaging with me or the evidence at all. They just continue to repeat the same nonsense like I didn't open my mouth. It's difficult to endure.
It makes me wonder if what I'm encountering is the beginnings of dementia in my boomer parents. I used to admire them and now I actively avoid talking to them. One believes everything she's told on TV while the other is deep in QAnon land. To be honest the TV parent is worse. At least the QAnon one is suspicious of mainstream media.
In recent years I've been saying something I never expected I would: I wish more people would just watch mainstream media lmao. At least then peoples' propaganda is filtered through some low bar of journalistic standards. (FOX News gets a lot more attention than it deserves. It is truly terrible, but it also has a very small viewership compared to the... mainstream news)
Regardless. That's really hard to be around. Ppl believe some surreal stuff these days.
I don't know what to say about those dangerous beliefs, and I share the same frustrations in my own life. I can only think to say that holding these beliefs isn't a personal fault of your parents. It's a systemic thing, and it's happening across the board.
I genuinely believe that philosophy, and truth, will win out eventually. There will just be some growing pains. It just takes time.
Until then, all we can do is try to remember compassion and understanding as we try to lift people from the murky puddle of disinformation into the clear skies of a truer perspective :red-fist:
That's true, it's really amazing how poorly informed most people are.
I suppose for me the frustration comes from the total lack of critical thinking when it comes to media. Like my parent who uncritically watches the FL governor's press conferences and tells me, "If ICU beds were filling up how come the governor didn't say so?" Well, uh, maybe he has a reason for that?
If nothing else, I guess I can draw comfort from the fact that I'm still present in their lives and able to provide a leftist perspective. If I weren't there would there be any hope at all? LOL
Oooh. This was really nice to read for some reason .
I 100% agree with you about critical thinking. Honestly, when I think about how I think about the world, I often focus more on things like truth, honesty, taking things slow, and thinking critically than I necessarily focus on explicitly leftist things; even though I am unwaveringly leftist in my political lens. Critical thinking, and constantly watching out for your own epistemological blind spots is just that important, imo.
There's just a role for people like us, to be the watchers and to help others understand. Not such a bad calling, tbh :af-heart:
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Yes. It's amazing how much we can, just... not see about our own lives, experiences, even bodies. And even more amazing how just a few choice words, in the right way, at the right time, can fundamentally change us, forever. I really like what you said here:
What a beautiful, and hopeful sentiment. And true. You've made me want to strive for that :af-heart:
great post; appreciate you.
ty; you too.