Hear me out: I am a leftist. Don't ban me - this is something i've been thinking about quite a bit recently.
I mean, at a macro level comparing the far left to the alt-right -- we seem to be a lot more focused on egalitarianism (while disagreeing on the means to that end). The alt-right seems to be focused on creating an ethno state, pretty much. Comparing them, the morality clearly skews towards our direction.
However, what concerns me is how we (you and i) are further insulating ourselves into message boards. When I first think about insulation, what comes up to my mind are those idiots who get brainwashed by alt-right facebook propaganda. They interact with it, then that's all they see on their wall, and all of a sudden they are in an echo chamber. We've all heard about these and know how bad they are.
My first thought is: "Oh, well, I'm educated and I read books and theory. I'm not like them. Alt righters are just dumb ass facebook moms who haven't read a book in years."
My second thought is: "Oh, shit. I'm insulating myself JUST like them, though."
I don't know. I'm just kind of conflicted. Left ideologies aren't morally bad, unlike alt-righters. But, at the same time we are creating an echo chamber, just like how /r/thedonald did with thedonald.win -- after we both got banned by a traditional news outlet.
What are the effects of that? Is this good or bad?
It's impossible to be completely in the bubble as leftist - the establishment narrative is all around us.
This phenomenon is not specific to chapo.chat or TheDonald. These inbred bubbles are a feature of today's web. As long as you are clear about your intent and the reach of your posts, I do not see the negative side of sharing stuff with friends on an open platform. But it's neither praxis nor efficient propaganda.
Yeah and it's also worth pointing out echo chambers have kind of been a feature of the internet from the very beginning, they were just a lot smaller back then so not as big of a deal. Before the rise of social media sites like digg, reddit, Facebook etc subject-specific forums, message boards and email lists were much more common.
Political movements have always produced propaganda and bubbles. It used to be newspapers.
Keep an open mind but don't be a liberal, I understand it's a difficult tightrope for you libs.
This is a bad take, chief, and here's a few thoughts on why.
TheDonald was a cesspit of hatred, bile, and classism that went unchecked for years. It wasn't only tolerated, it flourished on reddit and turned the rest of it sour. If not for Chapo providing a counterweight to their incessant raids and subtle gaslighting of local community subreddits, it would have been even worse. You want echo chambers? TheDonald already was one. They could exist unchallenged in their space despite sorely needing it.
The left has rarely been afforded the same luxury to gather together, to speculate, to debate, to exist, without being broken up violently by the right and their cronies. This is nothing like what TheDonald is doing because they're creating an escapist echo chamber to jerk each other off and clap each other on the back for being well-off white dipshits.
We are creating a space to safely interact with each other, a rarity that has not been afforded, especially in such volume, for the left.
Just read any thread about China, about electoralism, about anything. You're having higher level discussions because you don't have to drag down the discourse to 101 level horseshit just to make your point. This is hardly an echo chamber. Your thoughts here do not go unchallenged. Our ideology is not that of fear.
So stop worrying and post already, Jesus.
Your thoughts here do not go unchallenged. Our ideology is not that of fear
great idea.
The difference is we are correct and good and they are bad and wrong.
From a sociological perspective, society is being siloed and fractured/polarized by... the internet. It's a function of being able to choose your own media, all the time. During the Age of Spoken Word, you only heard what there was to hear. For much of the history of empire, this has been stories told by bards, paid by kings. In the modern era, state propaganda and corporate media reigned, and their narratives were the only ones you heard on your radio and in your newspaper.
Bam. The internet. We choose every little story we see. And we choose them largley through social media agreggators: and we choose those too.
Suddenly you're a lot less likely to think like your next door neighbour does. This isn't inherently good or bad, and neither is participating in online communities. But is does have effects, whether left or 'right', and you're right to point them out.
It's harder to disagree now; we're used to only agreeing, or disagreeing over minute differences. This has real, measurable impacts on social trust and societal cohesion.
But probably the biggest impact, that scares me the most: we can't even agree on a basic, shared set of facts right now.
Talking to 5 random people on the street now is now likely to reveal 5 fundamentally different understandings of reality, and epistemology (how we know what to believe). It's hard when half the people think that 5g is aliens who invented corona to put on the facemask blah blah blah.
That's the scary piece to me: siloing in communities has made us extremely vulnerable to having our worldview divorced from material reality. This has, of course, always been true; hence the materialist focus of Marxism.
But I think it's increasing, and I don't know what's gonna stop it. One point of optimism: communtiies like this exist that are materialist and rational, which self-correct beliefs and can actually get people more in tune with reality, even if much of the internet is doing the opposite.
Thanks for the food for thought, comrade, and much love :red-fist:
But also talking about being an insular community and its effects on us is what separates us from communities like the_donald.
Ya, this open-minded self-crit is really a fundamental difference, that generates many huge differences :)
Mhm. When I was younger, I would have conversations with chud neighbours and just... disagree. They'd say the same old bad stuff, and I'd just suck it up and respond the best I could. Now, basically, I'm a lot more emotionally reactive to bad ideas, just on a physiological level, and I'd guess it's because my overton window, my sense of what is 'normal' to hear has been so tailor-made lately. I don't think they're wrong anymore so much as I think they're wrong to say it, and my heart races.
The flip side is that I'm more free to expand my perspective without 'the cop in my head', or that 'real-world community moral voice' that one internalizes, telling me 'no' to good leftist thoughts as I examine them. So it's give and take, good and bad... but I really gotta up my 'listening to libs' game again; I guess that's why I come here. LMAO GET DUNK'D ON hahahaha ;)
:chavez-salute: :af-heart:
When I was younger, I would have conversations with chud neighbours and just… disagree. They’d say the same old bad stuff, and I’d just suck it up and respond the best I could. Now, basically, I’m a lot more emotionally reactive to bad ideas
Part of this is the shift from seeing politics as a lively spectator sport to seeing politics as a series of decisions that can and do kill people.
That's a really great point. In my earlier years, I would look at things like funding for social programs like social assistance or health care through a more detached, philosophical lens. That changed pretty quickly as I became more worldly and learned that every time some conservative shit-head politician cuts funding pretty much anywhere, real actual humans die; and the conservative politicians know that.
It's not all the change in discourse as time passes; it's also that I've changed, as I continue to wake up to the fact that I, we, are living in a class war. And it's time to start waging it.
Of course... sometimes that looks like being reasonable, and speaking with people from where they are at. It's a double-bind. Luckily we all have comrades online to talk through these things with :) :red-fist:
I don’t think they’re wrong anymore so much as I think they’re wrong to say it, and my heart races.
Yeah I don't know what to do about this. When I try to discuss current events with my parents I end up actively disliking them and viewing them as morally deficient people. It's unpleasant. The reality is they're no worse than most Americans which means I'm left out as the oddball.
I wish it were easier for me to have discussions with people and not come away from it thinking they're morally reprehensible. When they're mostly just ignorant and tribal -- which is a universal human condition. At the same time, I have to acknowledge that people on the right will also come away from a discussion with me thinking I'm the morally reprehensible one. And they'll think I'm the one who's ignorant. Etc.
I wish it were easier for me to have discussions with people and not come away from it thinking they’re morally reprehensible.
I would never claim the have The Answer to something so big like this, but I do have a thought I think might help.
When this happens, I try (and usually fail) to think:
Why do I think what I think? Well... largely because of things I've heard and read; in other words, for reasons beyond my control.
To what extent do any of us really choose our beliefs? Even leftists, whose whole shtick is to be self-critical, and to learn from evidence etc. But imagine everyone else!
We're speaking in a language we didn't choose, in a place we didn't choose. We grew up around people and ideas we didn't choose.
We're out here to combat, and to change ideas. The people holding those beliefs are, in some ways, more of a side-effect than the cause, if you zoom out enough.
That helps me be more ok with reactionary beliefs in the people close to me, which includes myself. Food for though . :af-heart:
I think that's true most of the time, so I agree with you. I just wish it were more helpful to my situation.
Unfortunately I'm dealing with people who tell me dangerous factually incorrect nonsense ("COVID-19 will disappear the day after the election", literally, or "there are no hospitals in FL that have run out of ICU beds, it's all hype"). I make arguments against it or send them links supporting my case but they continue to believe in the factual nonsense without engaging with me or the evidence at all. They just continue to repeat the same nonsense like I didn't open my mouth. It's difficult to endure.
It makes me wonder if what I'm encountering is the beginnings of dementia in my boomer parents. I used to admire them and now I actively avoid talking to them. One believes everything she's told on TV while the other is deep in QAnon land. To be honest the TV parent is worse. At least the QAnon one is suspicious of mainstream media.
In recent years I've been saying something I never expected I would: I wish more people would just watch mainstream media lmao. At least then peoples' propaganda is filtered through some low bar of journalistic standards. (FOX News gets a lot more attention than it deserves. It is truly terrible, but it also has a very small viewership compared to the... mainstream news)
Regardless. That's really hard to be around. Ppl believe some surreal stuff these days.
I don't know what to say about those dangerous beliefs, and I share the same frustrations in my own life. I can only think to say that holding these beliefs isn't a personal fault of your parents. It's a systemic thing, and it's happening across the board.
I genuinely believe that philosophy, and truth, will win out eventually. There will just be some growing pains. It just takes time.
Until then, all we can do is try to remember compassion and understanding as we try to lift people from the murky puddle of disinformation into the clear skies of a truer perspective :red-fist:
That's true, it's really amazing how poorly informed most people are.
I suppose for me the frustration comes from the total lack of critical thinking when it comes to media. Like my parent who uncritically watches the FL governor's press conferences and tells me, "If ICU beds were filling up how come the governor didn't say so?" Well, uh, maybe he has a reason for that?
If nothing else, I guess I can draw comfort from the fact that I'm still present in their lives and able to provide a leftist perspective. If I weren't there would there be any hope at all? LOL
Oooh. This was really nice to read for some reason .
I 100% agree with you about critical thinking. Honestly, when I think about how I think about the world, I often focus more on things like truth, honesty, taking things slow, and thinking critically than I necessarily focus on explicitly leftist things; even though I am unwaveringly leftist in my political lens. Critical thinking, and constantly watching out for your own epistemological blind spots is just that important, imo.
There's just a role for people like us, to be the watchers and to help others understand. Not such a bad calling, tbh :af-heart:
Yes. It's amazing how much we can, just... not see about our own lives, experiences, even bodies. And even more amazing how just a few choice words, in the right way, at the right time, can fundamentally change us, forever. I really like what you said here:
"your politics can be a vehicle for your own flourishing and the flourishing of the people around you."
What a beautiful, and hopeful sentiment. And true. You've made me want to strive for that :af-heart:
Since we're a multi-tendency community, we're a lot less insular than strictly anarchist or strictly communist communities. Also it's not like any of us are about to chair a workers' council, so even if it does get a bit echo-chambery it's not actually hurting anything.
You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. If those five people are all of the neoliberal mindset Americans have by default, you’re in a bad spot. If those 5 people are all on this site, you’re also in a bad spot.
If you’re concerned you aren’t being exposed to enough chud viewpoints go spend 5 minutes on a YouTube comment section. The difference between us and Donald is that most of us can’t live in an echo chamber in the real world like they can, so this site is a relief from the real world and not a force of intensifying nascent beliefs of capitalism and racism that people grew up with.You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.
This only makes sense if my dog is Stalin
There are also good sides to a forum being 'echo chambery'. Some conversations can only happen if most the participants share the same beliefs. The internal contradictions of the leftist movements can only be solved in a space where it is not constanly being interrupted by liberals. Of course we are just shitposting, but in theory.
We got banned for saying slave owners and landlords should die, they got banned for promoting white supremacy? Idk you decide
Honestly this is a really simple but accurate statement. That’s what it comes down to. We’re similar to t_d in that we’re both on the outer edges of “mainstream” acceptability, and we’re not apologetic about it. But like, we want human rights for everyone, and they... don’t?
Yeah we are both extreme but one is for human rights and maximum quality of life for all and the other is to install a rigid social hierarchy with the people at the bottom being considered and treated as the scum of the earth.
Comparing the Chapo sub to t_d is pretty disingenuous and I think really downplays how t_d was moderated, and to a lesser extent passively supported by Reddit’s admins. T_d was run top down, any dissent(edit for chud_apatow) was banned immediately whereas Chapo is a constant struggle session about the podcast or any possible tendency.
Sure there are memes but generally they speak some truth to power whereas t_d was almost entirely facebook tier harrassment of marginalized people. Also, it took years of rule breaking, brigading and general fuckery before admin at reddit did anything at all about them even though, and I don’t have proof of this but after watching 2016 play out, much of the subscriber base there were probably bots/astroturfers(I don’t mean Russians to be very clear, I’m talking fake grassroots lobbying groups in the good old USA).
Like, there’s gonna be groupthink on the internet but to say, how is this inclusive weird-left community loosely affiliated with a podcast not unlike a heavily moderated ideological meme propaganda mouthpiece for a candidate and now sitting president, seems like some real evil bullshit.
Further, if your asking whether it’s ok for Chapo to create a new community somewhere other than reddit after being purged for “reasons”, yes it’s ok because the people that run reddit are awful. Just because this place exists doesn’t mean you can’t go argue with fash enabling libs on reddit or look at really zoomed in pictures of assholes or whatever else comes up on r/all. You know, don’t let them take this from you too.
Sorry but I'm going to be the "spelling guy"
Not sure if you know the difference and just did it accidentally, but you used the word "descent" when the right word is "dissent"
Aggressive phone spellcheck my man, descent doesn’t make any sense obv but you figured it out.
They sound the same so I'm sure some people don't realize that they're two different words.
Cheers :)
Alt righters are just dumb ass facebook moms who haven’t read a book in years.
if this is what you think the alt-right is, there's your problem.
i mean, thedonald voluntarily created their insulated echo chamber. that subreddit was completely empty for months before it was actually banned. as opposed to the left spaces on reddit, which were in the top 10 most active subs.
that's kind of a big difference. it's not like this was a choice to be here
but lemme ask you, whats your solution? allow liberal and conservative view points onto the site?
Don't want to go up to bat for thedonald but didn't reddit essentially kill the sub by banning the mods, putting strict requirements for new mods and (this may be were I'm incorrect) not allowing them to make new posts while the sub was modless. Like sure it isn't technically a ban but you don't really have much of a choice but move in if you can't make posts anymore.
i didn't know that part :man shrugging:
i guess my question still stands tho. should we invite conservatives to have an open debate in the market place of ideas? lol
I think there are merits to the idea but ultimately I don't think it would be worth doing on this site. Like we should be able to convert others to support socialism, its the only way we'll ever get it but the benefit I got from the chapo sub was being exposed to the examples of the damage done by capitalism ( coup in bolivia, war torn regions, people dying domestically due to no health care, etc.) and if we started debating conservatives I think it would dilute a lot of that. An even bigger concern I have is that there's no way conservatives would stick to just debating economic systems and they would absolutely start having people justify the existence of minorities. Some people saw the sub as a genuine safe space for them and I don't think we should take that away.
Quick addition, people should absolutely consume media outside of this site and I think those who want debates can have them elsewhere, we'll probably have struggle sessions of our own anyways.
oh, i didn't know that they created that site before they were banned.
i don't really have a solution; the idea of an echo chamber is just pretty fascinating to me. there's several professors at my uni doing research about it and i think i kind of want to join 'em.
Lemmy with federation should in theory be less of an echo chamber than something like thedonald.win. It depends on who is willing to federate with us/who we're willing to federate with. I doubt we'd put up with opening things up to terfs or nazis for example but people here would probably enjoy dunking on libertarians.
An explanation pulled from the discord made by Necco Wafer:
"think of federation as how email works. it doesn't matter if you use yahoo, gmail or run your own email server from your personal computer; you can still email anyone on any of those other services because they all share a common communication standard.
so mastadon, for instance, is like if twitter was more like email. instead of one company hosting everyone's feeds and tweets, people or communities can host their own instance of "twitter", but still follow and communicate with people tweeting from other instances.
its a model for software that allows for counterweights to tech giants' ability to moderate discussion and define the boundaries of discourse
a single body, like twitter or reddit can't just shut down a federated communites they disagree with ideologically, and there are other advantages. Say you don't like something about a platform, from its visual design to the way its algorithm favors posts - you now have the ability to switch to a different host without leaving your community behind.
we will host our chapo instance, but its our hope that other groups (who probably don't want to be under the chapo brand) who want to break away from centralized platforms like reddit will set up their own lemmy instances. In that case, once federation is implemented, you will be able to subscribe to communities on those instances and have them appear in your feed as though they are part of our website, and vice versa
Who wants like 6 companies defining the rules of our online spaces? they can! there is a tool called activitypub which lets all sorts of federated services work together. for instance, from mastadon (federated twitter) , you can subscribe to channels from peertube (federated youtube)
lemmy isnt there yet, but they're actively building the federation functionality, so they will be eventually!"
If you've read books and theory, then you would know that real education happens through struggle, not through discussion on message boards online. It doesn't matter if we're in an echo chamber, as long as we are also doing organizing work outdoors in the real world.
don't spend all your time on one website and you're good
interact with people in real life
don’t spend all your time on one website
I use chapo.chat AND reddit
