Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone on Wednesday accompanying five Chinese warships engaged in "combat readiness" patrols, the island's defence ministry said, the second such incursion this week.
Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone
. . .
Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan's air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
For those unfamiliar with the Air Defense Identification Zone:
Not only does it include a lot of water that isn't part of the Strait, right off of China's coast, it also includes a portion of Mainland China a few times larger than Taiwan itself.
People like to talk like China is flying jets over Taipei City, but you can fly a plane from one city in Mainland China to another, only passing over land, and be in this zone. Mind you, I don't think Taiwan having this zone is bad -- countries generally should be aware of air traffic nearby -- but this is part of a long history of alarmist headlines by western media regarding what is often very uninteresting air traffic in the PRC.
Yeah, obviously it's a glorified puppet state but there's no point in arguing from that standpoint here. If a country is to exist, it should know about local air traffic, that's all I'm saying.
The PRC wants a peaceful reunification, which would not be aided by them continuously flying military jets over the island. I, too, would prefer peaceful reunification, which means some level of cooperation and tolerance is necessary.
The RoC won't give up their holdings in the interest of human benefit, but liberalism shows us that there are countless ways to skin a cat. The RoC is not autarkic and is very dependent on its NATO friends and its trading partners. As the US wanes and third world nations stand up, the support for Taiwanese nationalism will surely dwindle, and RoC leadership may be put in a position where their best offer is clearly to reunify.
I started writing out a timeline but I don't know what position you're asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China so that the US could us the island as a threat against China -- as it also attempted to do in Korea when it had more-or-less complete control of the southern half. Taiwan spent about 40 years as a military dictatorship killing tens of thousands of dissidents, native Formosans, and others (this was called the "White Terror"), while their patron the US looked the other way while it pumped resources into the country (for the ruling class, mind you) to use the island as a sweatshop site in the interim. This legacy and its connections to fellow US puppet South Korea and US ally Japan go a long way to explaining its current capacity in manufacturing, which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Both Taiwan and SK have made various attempts to assert themselves (with some success in both cases), but with the pathetic diplomatic position of the former and the continued military occupation of the latter by the US, I think "puppet state" is a fair title for them, perhaps as much as Israel, but that's its own can of worms.
I didn't really intend on getting into litigating this topic, but I'm happy to discuss it as best I can.
Not only did the US turn a blind eye to the White Terror, but they were positively gleeful about it, as a key target of it was of course not only indigeneous-politics based, but fundamentally anti-communist.
Indeed a basic presupposition of the US providing you such extensive economic support, as a forward base in Asia against communism, is that you crush any opposition to its 'proper' functioning as such an economic and military asset. That supposes that you will crush any radical, labor, trade-union, let alone explicitly socialist or communist activity which appears to challenge the state.
I started writing out a timeline but I don't know what position you're asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China [...] which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Yes, I know about its not-so-glorious past and the White Terror. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. It was terrible. However, I must respectfully disagree with you on the "puppet state" part. I don't think that Taiwan is a puppet state. The US sponsoring Taiwan is a thing of the past. Neither is a pathetic diplomatic position a good reason for being a puppet state.
if US support dropped overnight, reunification with the mainland would become inevitable. it's a puppet state in the sense that it's propped up by the might of the US/NATO military.
I didn't see this reply before. The other commenter has it right that the relevance of its pathetic diplomatic position is that it is being propped up by the US/NATO and ultimately depends on them to exist apart from the PRC, which makes it very difficult to oppose them. Incidentally, does the US not sponsor Taiwan? Even just recently there was this, which sure seems like sponsorship to me.
I could have formatted it better, but the rest was focused on the puppet part and then I prefaced the sponsorship part with "Incidentally" to indicate changing over to an adjacent subject.
Taiwan is a rump state of the despotism that existed before the Maoist revolution. When the government fled to the island, the US backed them up and prevented the revolution from purging them from power and uniting the whole country under one flag. They exist today as they are because of western intervention, and is therefore a puppet state. I disagree with 'glorified' considering it's taboo internationally to even call them a state.
Like asking yankoids what they want to do with "their land", the question is pointless and only serves to legitimize a faulty preposition.
The ROC also still claims to be the legitimate government of all of China (plus Mongolia and a sizable chunk of Russia) so its not like they're just sitting there minding their own business either.
The ROC also claims the South China Sea as its own and has build naval bases in there. Even the DPP doesn't want to give up those naval bases. So, it's the Republic of Taiwan to stick it to the Mainland commies, but "akctually, we're the Republic of China, and the South China Sea is part of Chinese naval waters, so we get to build as many naval bases as we want" to Vietnam and Indonesia.
Do you even know why the pro-independence party (DPP) lost so badly in the local election for mayors? Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy, not because they didn't agree with the foreign policies DPP was pushing! (Please note that I'm not saying most people agree.) In local elections, people are going to choose whoever they believe would be the best for the city/county, not the one whose views on China they agree with.
Additionally, if you look at the latest opinion poll for the presidental election next year, you'd be surprised to find out that the candidate from the pro-independence party is leading.
Source: am Taiwanese
ps. you made a typo in your comment. it was the 2022 local election, not 2020.
i am sure the success or failure of those domestic policies were not in the least contingent on international political conditions. the economic policies of an island that imports 97% of its energy with a food self sufficiency rate of around 30% and exports accounting for 70% of gdp can in no way be considered to be overexposed or at risk to trade fluctuations and even if that were the case, i am sure that foreign policy would not play an outsize role in determining the magnitude or periodicity of said trade fluctuations.
Because a poll asking a direct question is a hell of a lot more accurate in gauging how the population feels about the issue.
Political parties can lose elections for their stances/actions outside their main one -- which seems to have been the case per the actual person from Taiwan that responded to your comment. It doesn't matter what a party is called or what their main goals are if they're bad at their job.
If and when the people of Taiwan decide they want reunification, it will happen. Thankfully Beijing isn't going to be allowed to force the issue.
The majority of Taiwanese people has always wanted to remain status quo, as indicated by the two triangle data lines in the plot. Since declaring independence is basically asking China to attack and that peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population) either, the majority are of course pro-status quo. It does not line up with how DPP ate shit last year.
peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population)
Again, this was "forced" reunification in that poll, i.e. military takeover. Of course people oppose that. I think at least the plurality opinion is against peaceful reunification under the PRC too, but it's not by as high a margin.
No, it was NOT "forced" reunification. The two reunification choices in that poll were "unification as soon as possible" and "maintain status quo, move towards unification," neither of which is forced.
Amazing how comfortable you are being racist on a public forum.
Anyway, people should look at this map and take note of how far Taiwan's ADIZ extends into Fujian province of mainland China and the open ocean (which is the southwest corner the PRC's airplanes were supposedly encroaching on). These articles are obviously published to make China seem more aggressive than it really is. Meanwhile the US, with the most powerful navy in the world, parades its warships through the Taiwan strait, which for some reason is not seen as a threat or provocation. Also Taiwan claims the mainland as its own territory. Oh, poor little Taiwan. Lol, get off it.
"How am I being racist? I'm just assuming anyone who disagrees with me must be a certain ethnicity and/or bot."
This really isn't too complicated. Stop using Chinese as a pejorative and "bot" as a thought terminating cliche. It prevents any meaningful discussion, and yes, it's also very racist.
The term isn't being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
The term isn't being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
Chinese refers to the people who live there or who's families emigrated from there, not randos online who don't support the rabid NATO line. your racism is showing.
Didn't take long for that one to come out, accused of being racist and immediately compares the leader of China to a yellow cartoon bear lmao. Incredible
What's wrong with Winnie the Pooh anyways? Who doesn't want to live the rest of their life eating honey and being a loving, caring member of their community?
That is one of the top all time posters over on hexbear. I'm not sure why you keep thinking that established posters are new bot accounts, but it's absolutely not helping you to look less ridiculous
The instance I'm a part of (hexbear) just federated with Lemmy dot ml a week ago. So I don't have many comments on here obviously. I am unfortunately addicted to the internet and have way more comments than that on my accounts main instance. I wish this was my only comment in 3 years lol. Could have got so much done instead of wasting time on my phone.
Imagine going off on people for the age of their account when you've been here for 2 months (reddit refugee) lmao. You don't have the highground here and your feigned elitism makes you look like a clown.
Sir or Ma'am, I am a US citizen of Chinese descent and I assure you that you are being a cracker, and you can stop any time.
My bias is towards peace and against interfering in other countries' internal affairs. Taiwan is part of China, this was settled in 1972. It's only in recent years that the US has taken a hostile stance against the PRC since its peaceful economic rise has started to threaten US hegemony. This is not my fight, it's not your fight, it is the fight of the US ruling class—its political establishment and its financial oligarchs. China and the US should be allies, and we should be putting our combined labor into decarbonization, healing the ecosphere, reparations for the global south, and preparing communities for the effects of climate change.
Also, my family immigrated from Hong Kong before it was released from British rule, so ~by your logic~ I should be against China, which I'm not, because I'm capable of critical thinking.
Yes, the ADIZ includes part of China, but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait. Also I don't think Taiwan gets mad over any jets intruding the "overclaimed" part of the ADIZ.
I literally quoted the part that you just also quoted, which specifies that some of the craft were merely in the ADIZ, the one thing I was talking about in my comment
Like 6ish years ago we all, liberals and leftists together, were creeped out by the right's sudden proliferation of "NPC" memes, correctly pointing out how dehumanizing it is and conjecturing darkly about what exactly this kind of rhetoric was priming these people for. Now, the overton window's so fucked that the we've normalized deploying the exact same invective against anyone who speaks up on behalf of humanity and against a US-dominated world. I've driven past the ruins of the Japanese concentration camps out in the miserable desert, and to know that so many people around me who act self-righteous but stand for nothing would rebuild those camps at the snap of a finger, or the running of an op-ed, or a scary news story....well, these people may haughtily object to being called blue MAGA, but that sure doesn't stop them from doing absolutely fucking everything they can to earn the label.
You both quoted the same exact piece of text. You said they didn't read the article but you didn't even bother to read their comment?
You are calling a human being a bot, literally dehumanizing them, because they don't have the same hatred of China as you. You should really check yourself. You are full of hatred and ideological poison. It is clear from your comment that you have limited literacy skills and understanding, you should check out some other perspectives and try to broaden your horizons. Here is one. This is also another incredible resource with a lot of essays and information with a different perspective
No no never engage their statement on it's alleged merits. Kick them in the [redacted] and then ask them why they can't walk while laughing. It is the weirding way.
We should give @RandAlThor@lemmy.ca benefit of the doubt. Sometimes when people view other's profile from another instance, the post history shows up empty.
Beep boop I have been programmed to make really fucking cool historical dramas beep boop (This is my stereotype about China idk what else happens there I just really like Three Kingdoms adaptations did y'all see 2008's Red Cliff it was dope af! John Woo directing!)
I mean, it was made solely for your benefit (though I did like reading it). For your convenience, here it is again.
They are mocking you because they have assessed you as not interested in really engaging with people. If you were more unassuming, the response would be different. It sucks to be dogpiled-on, it has happened to me -- with this very group no less -- but it's good to try to have some perspective of the limits of the implications of such behavior.
Also hexbear is just a little excited to have liberals to use as punching bags via federation, so there's definitely a bit of a hair trigger. I generally prefer to stick to my own ways of talking with people for various reasons, but I struggle to find serious fault with them when I am essentially doing the same thing in my own way with others, and OP seriously brought this upon themselves by posting such a stupid, misleading, and alarmist article (see the comments about the Taiwan ADIZ from myself and others).
Edit: also I checked back and yeah, you were picking a fight. Liberal complains about "brigading," socialist A criticizes them, socialist B riffs on socialist A's comment, then you come and reply to socialist B with "You seem upset," which I would struggle to read as anything other than condescending and terse. I misread
It's not like you said "Hey, what about the Taiwan Strait part?" and got people screaming "HOG OUT OR LOG OUT!"
I don't think I've expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
I legitimately don't care either way tbh. All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought. I am not here to cure anyone's ignorance. I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
Whoops, I misread the reply chain pretty severely, you can ignore the edit. You were picking a fight, but not along the lines I wrote there.
I don't they've expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
Neoliberal is a subset of liberal (in the traditional philosophical sense, not American vernacular), and there is a very clear divide in the thread between neoliberal and socialist.
I legitimately don't care either way tbh.
With due respect, you're just a little Not Mad, but let's not belabor the point. I've been Not Mad too, it's not a sin.
All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought
There are a bunch of things wrong with this, starting with that the article was misleading dogshit and deserves to be mocked. Beyond that, the cultural clique of Hexbear can be myopic, but I think that it does not compare negatively to modern neoliberals in this respect. It is much more interested in international perspectives rather than the perspective of the "international community" (i.e. the EU + the Anglosphere + the most convenient elements of Taiwan, Japan, and SK). They quite frequently read neoliberal writing and listen to neoliberal speeches and so on, while neoliberals are usually content to hear about anything to do with their opposition exclusively through second- and third-hand reporting by their own media.
Which leads me into my next point, that "tankies" etc. are readily called fringe by liberals on the internet, but internationally represent a very common set of opinions (or a strong overlap therewith). It is itself myopia to dismiss the opinions of Chinese and many other people in the imperial periphery and consider only the opinions of the imperial core when evaluating what people think and what "leftist thought" consists of. You could not serious believe, for example, that the Collected Writings of Chairman Mao are important to only a "small subset of leftist thought," right? Sure, you are unlikely to know anyone -- or even to have ever met anyone in your real life -- who regards such a thing positively, but your personal experiences are not the world.
As an aside, the "bot" rhetoric that the liberals so often display is not really helping your case about the tankies being especially closed-minded.
I am not here to cure anyone's ignorance.
Do you see how most people would not be interested in talking with someone who says things like this? That level of condescension rarely produces anything other than scorn.
"You are being condescending to me too!"
Sure, I don't think that's an unreasonable view (though not my intention), but I am nonetheless explaining and substantiating my differences rather than merely denouncing what you say as "ignorant," and even if we nonetheless accept my fault, that just results in a criticism towards both of us rather than solely towards me.
I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
I would not have replied at all if I didn't recognize your username. You hadn't been saying anything in this thread that someone would normally think merits a serious response. You were derisive right out of the gate. To act this way and then complain about other people not turning the other cheek and speaking patiently to you is silly.
I promise you that if you make an alt (preferably with a different username in case people are grumpy with the interaction here) and post a thread on asklemmygrad or askchapo to the effect of "Hey, I'm a [whatever you call your flavor of liberalism], but I want to learn about what you believe on various topics and what you think of certain criticisms . . ." you will get mostly responses that are earnest. If you expect people to be polite and unassuming towards you when you begin by being aggressive and presumptuous, you will almost exclusively be disappointed, and I don't just mean that for interacting with commies.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only "true socialism." We've been over this already and I'm not sure there's much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don't really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials. That honestly feels offensive and chauvinist.
I do appreciate the discussion though. I hope we can continue this in a different setting somehow.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only "true socialism."
That is not the hexbear line and not even relevant to the thread. Being an anarchist or whatever you like doesn't mean believing western smears of China -- like this incredibly poor article that you keep talking around.
We've been over this already and I'm not sure there's much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
I remember now from that conversation a week ago that you insist on being some type of socialist but I am pretty sure you never specified.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese
It's not an unfounded opinion that the CPC has strong popular support. That doesn't mean the majority of China is ML in any serious way -- plainly, they don't seem to be -- but it does support the view that articles like this are a completely bullshit characterization of the PRC - RoC situation and most people in China (and many other countries in the imperial periphery) would agree.
while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don't really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials.
Reading another comment you made in this thread: Whoops, I guess you probably have met a Marxist or two. That wasn't terribly important to my argument, I was merely speculating on how you might have developed you false opinions. Given this new information, I don't have a new guess.
I don't care about your life and wasn't attempting to initiate some identity game, I merely try to understand things in terms of how ideology is downstream from personal circumstances, and how an ideology that is well-suited to one's personal circumstances can nonetheless lead them to have a distorted view of the world outside their experience. I support your inclination to not discuss these details with me but invite you to reflect on them to yourself in this context.
I read GS's thread, what do you want me to say? I have more personal, firsthand experience with China than anyone commenting there? I have family there? I speak the language? I have an actual stake in Chinese society? I think we've seen conclusively that none of that matters if you do a wrongspeak.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it. Like I said, this is well beyond my ability to truly care, I was just really hoping that lemmy would be a place people could discuss these topics instead of just trolling, and then having double standards when someone else gently pushes back.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it.
Dogpiling and brigading are two different things. Brigading is (at least loosely) coordinated, dogpiling is something people do when they are there, coordinated or not. The algorithm just happened to put this thread near the top on Hexbear, which is only federated with a handful of instances, as can be seen by the fact that I was the very first person to comment on it (next was op, then myself again, iirc). It is categorically false to my knowledge that this thread was "brigaded," a bunch of people with similar opinions on this issue just all saw the thread.
And it is obnoxious, but "obnoxious" doesn't mean "evil," especially when you were speaking so derisively about the people you had to have seen made up the bulk of the thread when you made your first comment. Honestly, what did you expect? In most political communities you'd get a very similar reaction, and I'd prefer a single emote to a "Crimes of China" copypasta filling up my inbox.
Scare quotes are used for discussing definitions, as in, uh . . . "socialism" is not "when the government does stuff". I was not meaning to convey that you used a word that you plainly did not, just highlighting that me agreeing to something being obnoxious does not mean agreeing to it being seriously wrong (which in common parlance might be called "evil").
For those unfamiliar with the Air Defense Identification Zone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(Taiwan)
Not only does it include a lot of water that isn't part of the Strait, right off of China's coast, it also includes a portion of Mainland China a few times larger than Taiwan itself.
People like to talk like China is flying jets over Taipei City, but you can fly a plane from one city in Mainland China to another, only passing over land, and be in this zone. Mind you, I don't think Taiwan having this zone is bad -- countries generally should be aware of air traffic nearby -- but this is part of a long history of alarmist headlines by western media regarding what is often very uninteresting air traffic in the PRC.
Lmao Taiwan existing is bad
Yeah, obviously it's a glorified puppet state but there's no point in arguing from that standpoint here. If a country is to exist, it should know about local air traffic, that's all I'm saying.
It is not to exist. I don’t care about their air borders and I hope China flies wherever they please within Chinese territory like Chinese Taipei
The PRC wants a peaceful reunification, which would not be aided by them continuously flying military jets over the island. I, too, would prefer peaceful reunification, which means some level of cooperation and tolerance is necessary.
It's going to require might and pressure and gunboat diplomacy, it's denial and liberalism to pretend colonialists just give up their holdings
The RoC won't give up their holdings in the interest of human benefit, but liberalism shows us that there are countless ways to skin a cat. The RoC is not autarkic and is very dependent on its NATO friends and its trading partners. As the US wanes and third world nations stand up, the support for Taiwanese nationalism will surely dwindle, and RoC leadership may be put in a position where their best offer is clearly to reunify.
A glorified puppet state? What do you mean?
I started writing out a timeline but I don't know what position you're asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China so that the US could us the island as a threat against China -- as it also attempted to do in Korea when it had more-or-less complete control of the southern half. Taiwan spent about 40 years as a military dictatorship killing tens of thousands of dissidents, native Formosans, and others (this was called the "White Terror"), while their patron the US looked the other way while it pumped resources into the country (for the ruling class, mind you) to use the island as a sweatshop site in the interim. This legacy and its connections to fellow US puppet South Korea and US ally Japan go a long way to explaining its current capacity in manufacturing, which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Both Taiwan and SK have made various attempts to assert themselves (with some success in both cases), but with the pathetic diplomatic position of the former and the continued military occupation of the latter by the US, I think "puppet state" is a fair title for them, perhaps as much as Israel, but that's its own can of worms.
I didn't really intend on getting into litigating this topic, but I'm happy to discuss it as best I can.
Not only did the US turn a blind eye to the White Terror, but they were positively gleeful about it, as a key target of it was of course not only indigeneous-politics based, but fundamentally anti-communist.
Indeed a basic presupposition of the US providing you such extensive economic support, as a forward base in Asia against communism, is that you crush any opposition to its 'proper' functioning as such an economic and military asset. That supposes that you will crush any radical, labor, trade-union, let alone explicitly socialist or communist activity which appears to challenge the state.
Yes, I know about its not-so-glorious past and the White Terror. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. It was terrible. However, I must respectfully disagree with you on the "puppet state" part. I don't think that Taiwan is a puppet state. The US sponsoring Taiwan is a thing of the past. Neither is a pathetic diplomatic position a good reason for being a puppet state.
if US support dropped overnight, reunification with the mainland would become inevitable. it's a puppet state in the sense that it's propped up by the might of the US/NATO military.
ehh yeah I guess so
I didn't see this reply before. The other commenter has it right that the relevance of its pathetic diplomatic position is that it is being propped up by the US/NATO and ultimately depends on them to exist apart from the PRC, which makes it very difficult to oppose them. Incidentally, does the US not sponsor Taiwan? Even just recently there was this, which sure seems like sponsorship to me.
Apparently being sponsored by a foreign state is now counted as being a puppet state?
That part was in response to you saying:
I could have formatted it better, but the rest was focused on the puppet part and then I prefaced the sponsorship part with "Incidentally" to indicate changing over to an adjacent subject.
Taiwan is a rump state of the despotism that existed before the Maoist revolution. When the government fled to the island, the US backed them up and prevented the revolution from purging them from power and uniting the whole country under one flag. They exist today as they are because of western intervention, and is therefore a puppet state. I disagree with 'glorified' considering it's taboo internationally to even call them a state.
Taiwhat? I Thought it was called the Republic of China, and everyone's been telling me China bad!
Cool, so lets ask the people living there (not those in power) what they want with their country.
... oh.
Like asking yankoids what they want to do with "their land", the question is pointless and only serves to legitimize a faulty preposition.
The ROC also still claims to be the legitimate government of all of China (plus Mongolia and a sizable chunk of Russia) so its not like they're just sitting there minding their own business either.
The ROC also claims the South China Sea as its own and has build naval bases in there. Even the DPP doesn't want to give up those naval bases. So, it's the Republic of Taiwan to stick it to the Mainland commies, but "akctually, we're the Republic of China, and the South China Sea is part of Chinese naval waters, so we get to build as many naval bases as we want" to Vietnam and Indonesia.
It's schrodinger's China. Simultaneously an independent smol bean democracy and the only legitimate inheritor of a 4000 year old empire.
deleted by creator
How about you link to the 2020 Taiwanese local election where the pro-independence party got BTFO?
They're more like pro japan party to me.
Do you even know why the pro-independence party (DPP) lost so badly in the local election for mayors? Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy, not because they didn't agree with the foreign policies DPP was pushing! (Please note that I'm not saying most people agree.) In local elections, people are going to choose whoever they believe would be the best for the city/county, not the one whose views on China they agree with.
Additionally, if you look at the latest opinion poll for the presidental election next year, you'd be surprised to find out that the candidate from the pro-independence party is leading.
Source: am Taiwanese
ps. you made a typo in your comment. it was the 2022 local election, not 2020.
inciting conflict with your biggest trading partner does tend to have negative effects on the economy
Well yeah I guess, but really it's more about the policies they had been pushing domesticlly
i am sure the success or failure of those domestic policies were not in the least contingent on international political conditions. the economic policies of an island that imports 97% of its energy with a food self sufficiency rate of around 30% and exports accounting for 70% of gdp can in no way be considered to be overexposed or at risk to trade fluctuations and even if that were the case, i am sure that foreign policy would not play an outsize role in determining the magnitude or periodicity of said trade fluctuations.
People forget that the PRC blocked various imports to the ROC after Pelosi pulled her stunt. The KMT is the "economics party" mostly because it knows not to rock the boat and maintain the status quo.
deleted by creator
Because a poll asking a direct question is a hell of a lot more accurate in gauging how the population feels about the issue.
Political parties can lose elections for their stances/actions outside their main one -- which seems to have been the case per the actual person from Taiwan that responded to your comment. It doesn't matter what a party is called or what their main goals are if they're bad at their job.
If and when the people of Taiwan decide they want reunification, it will happen. Thankfully Beijing isn't going to be allowed to force the issue.
You want polls, how about this poll conducted by a Taiwanese university where the majority of Taiwanese want neither reunification nor independence, but the status quo? The majority of Taiwanese people wanting the status quo lines up with how the pro-independence party ate shit while the pro-status quo party made huge gains. The DPP got BTFO so hard the current DPP president Tsai Ing-wen had to resign as party head.
The majority of Taiwanese people has always wanted to remain status quo, as indicated by the two triangle data lines in the plot. Since declaring independence is basically asking China to attack and that peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population) either, the majority are of course pro-status quo. It does not line up with how DPP ate shit last year.
Again, this was "forced" reunification in that poll, i.e. military takeover. Of course people oppose that. I think at least the plurality opinion is against peaceful reunification under the PRC too, but it's not by as high a margin.
No, it was NOT "forced" reunification. The two reunification choices in that poll were "unification as soon as possible" and "maintain status quo, move towards unification," neither of which is forced.
Which poll was this? The last one I saw linked was garbage along these lines though I don't think it was that exact one.
The one linked to in https://hexbear.net/comment/3690000
Oh, fair enough
Thank you for mentioning me. Makes me feel like not all people on this thread is pro-China. :D
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
Amazing how comfortable you are being racist on a public forum.
Anyway, people should look at this map and take note of how far Taiwan's ADIZ extends into Fujian province of mainland China and the open ocean (which is the southwest corner the PRC's airplanes were supposedly encroaching on). These articles are obviously published to make China seem more aggressive than it really is. Meanwhile the US, with the most powerful navy in the world, parades its warships through the Taiwan strait, which for some reason is not seen as a threat or provocation. Also Taiwan claims the mainland as its own territory. Oh, poor little Taiwan. Lol, get off it.
Removed by mod
At long last, we've reached the molten core of psychotic liberal solipsism
Dudes making us wheel of time fans look fucking terrible smh
deleted by creator
"How am I being racist? I'm just assuming anyone who disagrees with me must be a certain ethnicity and/or bot."
This really isn't too complicated. Stop using Chinese as a pejorative and "bot" as a thought terminating cliche. It prevents any meaningful discussion, and yes, it's also very racist.
The term isn't being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
you're suffering from some serious
brain poisoning
Got'em. You should post hog
deleted by creator
Their account is two years old and has two years of history. Idk if that doesn't show up for you or something, but it is indeed there.
Chinese refers to the people who live there or who's families emigrated from there, not randos online who don't support the rabid NATO line. your racism is showing.
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
"Yeah, I am comparing the leader of China to a yellow bear, but it is totally not racist guys. I really care about the chinese people"
Didn't take long for that one to come out, accused of being racist and immediately compares the leader of China to a yellow cartoon bear lmao. Incredible
What's wrong with Winnie the Pooh anyways? Who doesn't want to live the rest of their life eating honey and being a loving, caring member of their community?
I'm so flattered your first comment or post EVER in 3 years is to me. bye!
That is one of the top all time posters over on hexbear. I'm not sure why you keep thinking that established posters are new bot accounts, but it's absolutely not helping you to look less ridiculous
The instance I'm a part of (hexbear) just federated with Lemmy dot ml a week ago. So I don't have many comments on here obviously. I am unfortunately addicted to the internet and have way more comments than that on my accounts main instance. I wish this was my only comment in 3 years lol. Could have got so much done instead of wasting time on my phone.
Cope and cry more racist.
🌽
they have three years of post history
Imagine going off on people for the age of their account when you've been here for 2 months (reddit refugee) lmao. You don't have the highground here and your feigned elitism makes you look like a clown.
Is this supposed to be another example of you not being racist? Comparing the president of china to a yellow cartoon character?
Removed by mod
Yeah I'm fully aware that there are a lot of racists online
Did you know that the "nickname" derived from a myth of the character being banned in China when it is not?
And the racism, don't forget the racism!
It’s a term by white supremacists.
🚨 ATTENTION 🚨
Your account has been flagged for bot-like activity.
Please review the Posting Policy Bulletin, and post hog for account verification.
This is an automated message. If you believe you have received this in error click here to opt out of future communications.
This is amazing o7
deleted by creator
If you want to not show yourself as a bot, you should at least be creative in your racism.
Was West Germany expansionist?
You're expecting this person to know any of this history of China before 2000
One point for racist debate pervert!
Sir or Ma'am, I am a US citizen of Chinese descent and I assure you that you are being a cracker, and you can stop any time.
My bias is towards peace and against interfering in other countries' internal affairs. Taiwan is part of China, this was settled in 1972. It's only in recent years that the US has taken a hostile stance against the PRC since its peaceful economic rise has started to threaten US hegemony. This is not my fight, it's not your fight, it is the fight of the US ruling class—its political establishment and its financial oligarchs. China and the US should be allies, and we should be putting our combined labor into decarbonization, healing the ecosphere, reparations for the global south, and preparing communities for the effects of climate change.
Also, my family immigrated from Hong Kong before it was released from British rule, so ~by your logic~ I should be against China, which I'm not, because I'm capable of critical thinking.
Oh, and one more thing:
you, oh enlightened
one, could you perhaps explain to us what the word 'bot' means?
You sound completely deranged.
Need a Sopranos comm.
"You sound demented!"
That's precisely the sort of argument one would expect from a NAFO bot. Hope you earned enough FICO credit points to buy food tonight.
Yes, the ADIZ includes part of China, but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait. Also I don't think Taiwan gets mad over any jets intruding the "overclaimed" part of the ADIZ.
It says the jets did that OR were in the southwest zone. It is intentionally vague alarmism.
I literally quoted the part that you just also quoted, which specifies that some of the craft were merely in the ADIZ, the one thing I was talking about in my comment
I'm so tired of the notion that anyone not being in line with certain narratives is automatically considered a drone.
Like 6ish years ago we all, liberals and leftists together, were creeped out by the right's sudden proliferation of "NPC" memes, correctly pointing out how dehumanizing it is and conjecturing darkly about what exactly this kind of rhetoric was priming these people for. Now, the overton window's so fucked that the we've normalized deploying the exact same invective against anyone who speaks up on behalf of humanity and against a US-dominated world. I've driven past the ruins of the Japanese concentration camps out in the miserable desert, and to know that so many people around me who act self-righteous but stand for nothing would rebuild those camps at the snap of a finger, or the running of an op-ed, or a scary news story....well, these people may haughtily object to being called blue MAGA, but that sure doesn't stop them from doing absolutely fucking everything they can to earn the label.
Everyone who disagrees with me must be a bot.
I bet your response will contain one of more of the following: Winnie the Pooh, social credit, comrade, Uyghurs. Yet you call others bots, lmao.
Looks like you were correct on all of those predictions
Evergreen Goosplan meme.
You both quoted the same exact piece of text. You said they didn't read the article but you didn't even bother to read their comment?
You are calling a human being a bot, literally dehumanizing them, because they don't have the same hatred of China as you. You should really check yourself. You are full of hatred and ideological poison. It is clear from your comment that you have limited literacy skills and understanding, you should check out some other perspectives and try to broaden your horizons. Here is one. This is also another incredible resource with a lot of essays and information with a different perspective
Oh another no post history user! welcome to fediverse!
the user you just replied to made their account a year ago and has an extensive post history
And yet that dude is the one calling people bots
No no never engage their statement on it's alleged merits. Kick them in the [redacted] and then ask them why they can't walk while laughing. It is the weirding way.
We should give @RandAlThor@lemmy.ca benefit of the doubt. Sometimes when people view other's profile from another instance, the post history shows up empty.
Yeah I think that is what's happening. I've tried to explain it to them in a reply
...are you aware you can't see people's post histories if you click their username on lemmy.ca and you have to visit their home instance?
What would that have to do with anything? You should log off and touch grass, bigot.
Bro the amerikkkan navy sails it's boats there. Silence, drone.
Uhhh, that's obviously different, America is a
whitewestern country and so it owns the worldback to reddit with you
Beep boop I have been programmed to make really fucking cool historical dramas beep boop (This is my stereotype about China idk what else happens there I just really like Three Kingdoms adaptations did y'all see 2008's Red Cliff it was dope af! John Woo directing!)
MUST MAKE DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF TOM AND JERRY SHITPOSTSMUST POST MEMES OF AN AD FOR MIXUE ICE CITYMUST UPLOAD 12 GB FOLDER OF BIAOQING IMAGESof fucking course lol, ugh
Least Sinophobic Canadian
RandAlThor, more like AynRandAlThor
Lenin's only mistake was giving Ayn Rand an education
Bruh lmao
lemmy.ml stands for mega-lib smdh
"or"
not "and", "or".
The southwestern quadrant of Taiwan's ADIZ overlaps with China's ADIZ. If anything, Taiwan is overclaiming their ADIZ.
First day? Lemmygrad brigades every worldnews thread about China or Russia.
Learn how federation works. Or better yet, go back to reddit.
When I am exposed to multiple people who disagree with me, that's brigading
You seem upset
deleted by creator
Do you have anything to contribute or are you just trolling?
Did you ever check out that thread on lemmygrad I made for you? You never said anything but you might have just forgotten.
🥰
I glanced at it. But you see what's happening here right? These people have no interest in anything but trolling.
I mean, it was made solely for your benefit (though I did like reading it). For your convenience, here it is again.
They are mocking you because they have assessed you as not interested in really engaging with people. If you were more unassuming, the response would be different. It sucks to be dogpiled-on, it has happened to me -- with this very group no less -- but it's good to try to have some perspective of the limits of the implications of such behavior.
Also hexbear is just a little excited to have liberals to use as punching bags via federation, so there's definitely a bit of a hair trigger. I generally prefer to stick to my own ways of talking with people for various reasons, but I struggle to find serious fault with them when I am essentially doing the same thing in my own way with others, and OP seriously brought this upon themselves by posting such a stupid, misleading, and alarmist article (see the comments about the Taiwan ADIZ from myself and others).
Edit:
also I checked back and yeah, you were picking a fight. Liberal complains about "brigading," socialist A criticizes them, socialist B riffs on socialist A's comment, then you come and reply to socialist B with "You seem upset," which I would struggle to read as anything other than condescending and terse.I misreadIt's not like you said "Hey, what about the Taiwan Strait part?" and got people screaming "HOG OUT OR LOG OUT!"
I don't think I've expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
I legitimately don't care either way tbh. All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought. I am not here to cure anyone's ignorance. I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
Whoops, I misread the reply chain pretty severely, you can ignore the edit. You were picking a fight, but not along the lines I wrote there.
Neoliberal is a subset of liberal (in the traditional philosophical sense, not American vernacular), and there is a very clear divide in the thread between neoliberal and socialist.
With due respect, you're just a little Not Mad, but let's not belabor the point. I've been Not Mad too, it's not a sin.
There are a bunch of things wrong with this, starting with that the article was misleading dogshit and deserves to be mocked. Beyond that, the cultural clique of Hexbear can be myopic, but I think that it does not compare negatively to modern neoliberals in this respect. It is much more interested in international perspectives rather than the perspective of the "international community" (i.e. the EU + the Anglosphere + the most convenient elements of Taiwan, Japan, and SK). They quite frequently read neoliberal writing and listen to neoliberal speeches and so on, while neoliberals are usually content to hear about anything to do with their opposition exclusively through second- and third-hand reporting by their own media.
Which leads me into my next point, that "tankies" etc. are readily called fringe by liberals on the internet, but internationally represent a very common set of opinions (or a strong overlap therewith). It is itself myopia to dismiss the opinions of Chinese and many other people in the imperial periphery and consider only the opinions of the imperial core when evaluating what people think and what "leftist thought" consists of. You could not serious believe, for example, that the Collected Writings of Chairman Mao are important to only a "small subset of leftist thought," right? Sure, you are unlikely to know anyone -- or even to have ever met anyone in your real life -- who regards such a thing positively, but your personal experiences are not the world.
As an aside, the "bot" rhetoric that the liberals so often display is not really helping your case about the tankies being especially closed-minded.
Do you see how most people would not be interested in talking with someone who says things like this? That level of condescension rarely produces anything other than scorn.
"You are being condescending to me too!"
Sure, I don't think that's an unreasonable view (though not my intention), but I am nonetheless explaining and substantiating my differences rather than merely denouncing what you say as "ignorant," and even if we nonetheless accept my fault, that just results in a criticism towards both of us rather than solely towards me.
I would not have replied at all if I didn't recognize your username. You hadn't been saying anything in this thread that someone would normally think merits a serious response. You were derisive right out of the gate. To act this way and then complain about other people not turning the other cheek and speaking patiently to you is silly.
I promise you that if you make an alt (preferably with a different username in case people are grumpy with the interaction here) and post a thread on asklemmygrad or askchapo to the effect of "Hey, I'm a [whatever you call your flavor of liberalism], but I want to learn about what you believe on various topics and what you think of certain criticisms . . ." you will get mostly responses that are earnest. If you expect people to be polite and unassuming towards you when you begin by being aggressive and presumptuous, you will almost exclusively be disappointed, and I don't just mean that for interacting with commies.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only "true socialism." We've been over this already and I'm not sure there's much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don't really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials. That honestly feels offensive and chauvinist.
I do appreciate the discussion though. I hope we can continue this in a different setting somehow.
That is not the hexbear line and not even relevant to the thread. Being an anarchist or whatever you like doesn't mean believing western smears of China -- like this incredibly poor article that you keep talking around.
I remember now from that conversation a week ago that you insist on being some type of socialist but I am pretty sure you never specified.
It's not an unfounded opinion that the CPC has strong popular support. That doesn't mean the majority of China is ML in any serious way -- plainly, they don't seem to be -- but it does support the view that articles like this are a completely bullshit characterization of the PRC - RoC situation and most people in China (and many other countries in the imperial periphery) would agree.
Reading another comment you made in this thread: Whoops, I guess you probably have met a Marxist or two. That wasn't terribly important to my argument, I was merely speculating on how you might have developed you false opinions. Given this new information, I don't have a new guess.
I don't care about your life and wasn't attempting to initiate some identity game, I merely try to understand things in terms of how ideology is downstream from personal circumstances, and how an ideology that is well-suited to one's personal circumstances can nonetheless lead them to have a distorted view of the world outside their experience. I support your inclination to not discuss these details with me but invite you to reflect on them to yourself in this context.
They claim to be an anarcho-syndicalist.
hexbear literally bans anyone who posts this unironically. there's a strict rule against sectarianism.
"I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit."
deleted by creator
I read GS's thread, what do you want me to say? I have more personal, firsthand experience with China than anyone commenting there? I have family there? I speak the language? I have an actual stake in Chinese society? I think we've seen conclusively that none of that matters if you do a wrongspeak.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it. Like I said, this is well beyond my ability to truly care, I was just really hoping that lemmy would be a place people could discuss these topics instead of just trolling, and then having double standards when someone else gently pushes back.
Edit - improper pronoun
Dogpiling and brigading are two different things. Brigading is (at least loosely) coordinated, dogpiling is something people do when they are there, coordinated or not. The algorithm just happened to put this thread near the top on Hexbear, which is only federated with a handful of instances, as can be seen by the fact that I was the very first person to comment on it (next was op, then myself again, iirc). It is categorically false to my knowledge that this thread was "brigaded," a bunch of people with similar opinions on this issue just all saw the thread.
And it is obnoxious, but "obnoxious" doesn't mean "evil," especially when you were speaking so derisively about the people you had to have seen made up the bulk of the thread when you made your first comment. Honestly, what did you expect? In most political communities you'd get a very similar reaction, and I'd prefer a single emote to a "Crimes of China" copypasta filling up my inbox.
I did use the word obnoxious, and not the word evil.
Scare quotes are used for discussing definitions, as in, uh . . . "socialism" is not "when the government does stuff". I was not meaning to convey that you used a word that you plainly did not, just highlighting that me agreeing to something being obnoxious does not mean agreeing to it being seriously wrong (which in common parlance might be called "evil").
Again, learn what federation is or go back to reddit. No one is "brigading"
You also can't say you were pushing back when you were trolling right out the gate and every other comment is in reply to you.
deleted by creator
You sound upset
You sound upset
🚨 ATTENTION 🚨
Your account has been flagged for bot-like activity.
Please review the Posting Policy Bulletin, and post hog for account verification.
This is an automated message. If you believe you have received this in error click here to opt out of future communications.
deleted by creator
You seem upset
😠
Seems reasonable
U mad?
Not really
You sound mad
Ok
Good point
deleted by creator