This is like if the Confederacy retreated to Catalina Island, massacred everyone there, and continued calling itself the rightful government of the entire continent afterward.
This is not like that. The ROC government did not "massacre everyone there." It did call itself the rightful government of the entire China for several decades, but it has since then moved on.
Man, these days you know a hexbear without even looking at the user.
I mean this is complete baloney! You are also using the comparison to establish some kind of “evil slavers vs democracy” narrative that wasn’t in place at all in China during the warlord era. They were all equally horrid.
This is, at best, akin to a war between all states in the US after the Boston Tea Party and a communist state, let’s just pick Arizona, slowly winning the wars and forcing the remaining faction onto Hawaii. Then the socialist party forced anyone who could read, more or less, to work themselves to death in a field in the name of communism. Glory to the people!!!
I agree my characterisation is far off the mark. But the poster I responded to wasn’t even in the same galaxy, so I still considered it an improvement.
They did not say that they don't know shit about the topic, not even close. They simply said their characterization is far off the marks. That means that their understanding of the conflict is far from perfect, but they absolutely do know shit about it.
To think that you saw me make fun of you for the game of telephone you played with yourself and decided to take the final translation and defend yourself with it. Way to miss the fucking point. "Far from the mark" was already cope by someone who was simply fucking wrong about what they said.
This is, at best, akin to a war between all states in the US after the Boston Tea Party and a communist state, let’s just pick Arizona, slowly winning the wars and forcing the remaining faction onto Hawaii. Then the socialist party forced anyone who could read, more or less, to work themselves to death in a field in the name of communism. Glory to the people!!!
Uhhhh, The US already killed most of the natives by working them to death in a field in the name of profits. So... God Bless America?
Fuck you, honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. The Native Hawaiians I've met are extremely radical. It took me not time at all of just asking around to find an honest to god, Stalin loving, Marxist Leninist.
China reduced illiteracy rates into oblivion because of the communist party. The CPC was the largest force fighting the Japanese imperialists. They liberated Korea after the US empire colonized half of it. The Communist Party of China has given China a rebirth not seen since the glory of the dynasties. It ended famine in china, gave housing to most if not all chinese, eliminated the harshes poverty, and so much more.
Work to death in a field eh? Sounds more like the US, you know, when they killed and enslaved billions of people to work to death for their cotton farms?
Go eat something right away, even if it's just a snack! I once got a nasty concussion after skipping lunch at work and passing out. Trust me, the hospital bill isn't worth it.
Although I can't for the next hour since its 1 and I get off at... 2ish, I'm used to being light headed so I can make it until then. I don't have much money to buy the expensive ass lunches here, but today is worse than usual, so I'll make an exception.
But wait you're not supposed to skip lunch? I thought you only really had to eat dinner, at least thats what I've been doing.
Depends on the individual, apparently. According to to the doctors I've spoken to, there's no bigger issue. I basically can't go more than 3 hours without eating something or I start to feel faint, which is definitely on the low end though.
I think I've done it so much I can kind of disassociate from the pain long enough to last until dinner. If that doesn't work, chewing gum tricks your brain into thinking you've eaten, so I use that. Imma do that until I can see if I can snag some dinosaur chicken nuggets or smth.
What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is? Do you really believe that the income is more equal in China? If you are going to talk about the "concentration camps" on the USA border I'm going to need photo evidence too. Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:
I apologize for saying "how good it is." I was in a rush and couldn't think of a better phrase.
I just read through the article from the Washington Post you linked. That really is bad and I believe that the Trump government should not have treated the (although illegal) immigrants. The grim appearance of that facility really isn't something that the immigrants should have faced when they set foot on the US. However, compare that to the situation in Xinjiang. Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post. What China is doing to its Uyghurs is genocide. Not that it justifies anything that the US have done to its immigrants, but in comparison what the US is doing seem pretty mild.
I just clicked that link and, wow, that tweet was quite stupid. He should not have said that. What the Nazis did was unexcusable. However, please keep this in mind - that being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one's opinions on other topics.
The UN has done a fact finding Mission and they said there is no evidence of a Uyghur Genocide. It didn't happen.
China is one of the five most powerful members of the UN (the permanent members of the security council). Though the security council does not have much to do with the investigation directly, there is no gainsaying that China has had a certain degree of influence. It is entirely possible that the UN decided to overlook their crimes due to pressure from China.
Yes there are Vocational schools in Xinjiang. [...] and baby incubators.
When I told you that the Xinjiang camps are committing genocide or when you saw Zenz claiming the same how did you feel? You were thinking that I gobbled up and regurgitated all the US propaganda and that this is just a conspiracy theory because I couldn't give concrete proof, weren't you? This is also exactly how I feel toward your claims except that the propaganda you gobbled up were Chinese. Besides, I am pretty sure that when women are given more education, they decide not to have so many children either by using condoms or having less sex rather than getting IUDs.
No offence but your lack of media literacy is showing..
You understand that using WaPo as a source for American wrong doings is not the same as using WaPo as a source for wrong doings it's geopolitical rival. You'd need a Chinese outlet admitting to their faults for it to be equivalent..
Nonetheless I clicked on your link:
The disclosure comes in an investigative report from the Associated Press and a new research report by scholar Adrian Zenz for the Jamestown Foundation.
I hope I don't sound rude but it really sounds like you only consider WaPo trustworthy when it's convenient for you. Besides, the media in China are heavily controlled by the government. I don't think a news outlet would survive if they dared to report such things.
Literally the second paragraph...
Sorry, I don't understand how that makes this any less trustworthy?
I actually don't know if this image is fake or not, could be from a film for all I know. It's a DDG search result. But then you didn't actually research the origin of your photo either.
Edit: This comment does not address the ICE concentration camps and is only replying to the quoted text. To be clear.
My photo was taken from the Wikipedia article for the Xinjiang internment camps. Taken in April 2017, the image is titled Detainee in a Xinjiang Re-education Camp located in Lop County listening to "de-radicalization" talks. The photo you linked to was taken in the Arizona State Prison Complex: https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/05/20/early-release-arizona-prisons-matter-public-health-not-politics/5218072002/.
I actually already knew where you found that photo. But it's simply mislabelled on Wikipedia. This is where the image is from. https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pc
This is the earliest upload of that image known to me. It's from a regular prison in Xinjiang where convicted criminals who went through a legal trial are incarcerated. It's not related to the de-radicalisation program that the western media calls cultural genocide and suspect is happening in concentration camps.
Sorry, your link https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pc is broken. Web.archive.org tells me that it "got an HTTP 301 response at crawl time." Can you take a screenshot of it?
Yes but the USA has a PPP GDP PC of 76400 G–K$ and China has 21500 G–K$. How can you in good faith compare those?
(Life expectancy for Mexico, marginally richer per capita than China is 70. Life expectancy for the Philippines (poorer pc than China) is 69.)
The fact that China is in the same ballpark should be evidence enough that their policies are more people-orientated. The fact that they're ahead despite the huge disadvantage should be a huge point of shame for the USA, not something to be dismissed with saying the gap is small.
The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren't the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.
The left wing of the KMT split from Chiang's KMT in 1948 to form the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT. It was headed by a senior KMT General and Song Ching Ling the widow of Sun Yat Sen. Madam Song would later serve as a Vice President of the People's Republic of China and the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT holds seats in the National People's Congress to this day.
If you even look at the history of the KMT, you'd see that it's incredibly prone to factionalism, including a period during the First United Front where the CPC agreed to join the KMT as a wing to fight the Warlords but left after the KMT stabbed it in the back during the Shanghai Purges.
Legally, the PRC is recognized by the UN as the sole representative of China under General Assembly Resolution 2758 and the overwhelming majority of the world's nation's recognize that there is only one China and that China is the PRC.
The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren’t the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.
Going by paper legality argument, ROC is also illegal because it wrested power from Qing. Which conquered China from Ming, which toppled Yuan, and going fast forward to Han, Qing, Zhao and Shang, neither of them also risen peacefully.
Does it looks like that to you? I would say they have unparallelled cultural and civilisational continuity rarily seen in any other place. And feudal empires falling is not the gotcha you think it is, especially when you look at the absolute clusterfuck in Europe (or many other places too).
Every great empire in human civilization has fallen. China is the only one to have fallen and then gotten back up multiple times.
Like yeah China will probably fall again in the future, but the great grandchildren of everyone on this site will be long dead by then. Contrast that with America, which has had hegemony only since 1945 and already looks like it's in terminal decline.
You made your point dating to the shang, and I dont disagree. Even more, you're right, feudal empires falling isn't a gotcha.
So what about a modern state being violently overthrown? Or is this different because one violent, illegiment warlord championed "the people", and proceeded to starve 200* million of them after taking power?
Which one of these two states still maintains democratic or republican ideals for the people, a reminder that real Legitimacy lay with the people.
Sorry. Just a measley 50 million people mb. Still the worst famine in history. And 100% preventable.
Modern state is when you fund yourself off of opium profits, you appoint your gangster relatives to be in charge of state finances, your officials occasionally run off to form collaborationist governments with Imperial Japan, and you're so corrupt and incompetent that your own allies are disgusted by you and you lose a war against your own people despite the military and financial backing of the most powerful country in the world.
Democratic and republican ideals is when you retreat to an island because you got your ass handed to you and then perpetrate the White Terror against your people for 40 years.
You made your point dating to the shang, and I dont disagree.
Well, as i read about the history of China, previous entity of Xia apparently didn't conquered anyone and even if they did, we don't know, written history of China start from the late Shang period.
About the rest Tankiedesantski answered you about the "republican ideas" of ROC, i can only add that even if you deflect yet again to "real Legitimacy lay with the people" there is nothing more really legitimate by the people than popular revolution which led to the state being supported by 90% of population.
Nobody in SEA likes Taiwan. It doesn't help that Taiwan has two naval bases in the South China Sea and always sides with the PRC against the rest of SEA over the SCS, mostly using the justification of "acktually the SCS is part of Chinese naval waters and we're officially called the Republic of China, so this is Taiwanese naval waters btw since we're officially called the Republic of China."
Is that a bad thing? In your hypothetical situation, Chinese people should be happy about their government selling weaponry to Texas, and the Americans should not support their sale of weaponry. To compare this to the real world scenario, Chinese people should feel angry about this and Americans should feel good. I don't really get the point you're trying to convey with your analogy.
Imagine instead of complete surrender the confederacy retreated and held Texas, and China was selling them advanced weaponry. That’s what this is
This is like if the Confederacy retreated to Catalina Island, massacred everyone there, and continued calling itself the rightful government of the entire continent afterward.
This is not like that. The ROC government did not "massacre everyone there." It did call itself the rightful government of the entire China for several decades, but it has since then moved on.
It's constitution has not even been amended to not include Mongolia, let alone mainland China.
And the KMT did do a number on the indigenous Formosan population.
To say nothing of the 40 years White Terror
Man, these days you know a hexbear without even looking at the user.
I mean this is complete baloney! You are also using the comparison to establish some kind of “evil slavers vs democracy” narrative that wasn’t in place at all in China during the warlord era. They were all equally horrid.
This is, at best, akin to a war between all states in the US after the Boston Tea Party and a communist state, let’s just pick Arizona, slowly winning the wars and forcing the remaining faction onto Hawaii. Then the socialist party forced anyone who could read, more or less, to work themselves to death in a field in the name of communism. Glory to the people!!!
jesus christ read at least one book about the history of the conflict you're describing before you confidently spout nonsense.
I agree my characterisation is far off the mark. But the poster I responded to wasn’t even in the same galaxy, so I still considered it an improvement.
Also, I’m not Jesus Christ 🤪
Do they make redditors in a factory or something
No, they make Patrick.
Youve gotta be shitting me
So you acknowledge the fact that you don't know shit about the topic you're spouting off on but you still just assume you know better??
They did not say that they don't know shit about the topic, not even close. They simply said their characterization is far off the marks. That means that their understanding of the conflict is far from perfect, but they absolutely do know shit about it.
They didn't say they were wrong
They just said they were far off the mark
That means their understanding is far from perfect
They absolutely do know their shit
far from perfect can still be good.
Can it be time for you to shut up yet?
To think that you saw me make fun of you for the game of telephone you played with yourself and decided to take the final translation and defend yourself with it. Way to miss the fucking point. "Far from the mark" was already cope by someone who was simply fucking wrong about what they said.
You really need to get a new joke, boomer
Uhhhh, The US already killed most of the natives by working them to death in a field in the name of profits. So... God Bless America?
Fuck you, honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. The Native Hawaiians I've met are extremely radical. It took me not time at all of just asking around to find an honest to god, Stalin loving, Marxist Leninist.
China reduced illiteracy rates into oblivion because of the communist party. The CPC was the largest force fighting the Japanese imperialists. They liberated Korea after the US empire colonized half of it. The Communist Party of China has given China a rebirth not seen since the glory of the dynasties. It ended famine in china, gave housing to most if not all chinese, eliminated the harshes poverty, and so much more.
Work to death in a field eh? Sounds more like the US, you know, when they killed and enslaved billions of people to work to death for their cotton farms?
Liberals will tell you this is evil because it allowed the peasants to read Marx.
I think you mean "illiteracy rates" there, comrade.
fuck, sorry I haven't eaten today thanks lol
Go eat something right away, even if it's just a snack! I once got a nasty concussion after skipping lunch at work and passing out. Trust me, the hospital bill isn't worth it.
Although I can't for the next hour since its 1 and I get off at... 2ish, I'm used to being light headed so I can make it until then. I don't have much money to buy the expensive ass lunches here, but today is worse than usual, so I'll make an exception.
But wait you're not supposed to skip lunch? I thought you only really had to eat dinner, at least thats what I've been doing.
Depends on the individual, apparently. According to to the doctors I've spoken to, there's no bigger issue. I basically can't go more than 3 hours without eating something or I start to feel faint, which is definitely on the low end though.
I think I've done it so much I can kind of disassociate from the pain long enough to last until dinner. If that doesn't work, chewing gum tricks your brain into thinking you've eaten, so I use that. Imma do that until I can see if I can snag some dinosaur chicken nuggets or smth.
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I agree. People should take how the Chinese government and the US government treat their people into consideration.
lmaoooo
How constructive.
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What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is? Do you really believe that the income is more equal in China? If you are going to talk about the "concentration camps" on the USA border I'm going to need photo evidence too. Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:
::: spoiler
No, this photo is not fake.
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I apologize for saying "how good it is." I was in a rush and couldn't think of a better phrase.
I just read through the article from the Washington Post you linked. That really is bad and I believe that the Trump government should not have treated the (although illegal) immigrants. The grim appearance of that facility really isn't something that the immigrants should have faced when they set foot on the US. However, compare that to the situation in Xinjiang. Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post. What China is doing to its Uyghurs is genocide. Not that it justifies anything that the US have done to its immigrants, but in comparison what the US is doing seem pretty mild.
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I literally stated that in my comment. You even quoted it.
I just clicked that link and, wow, that tweet was quite stupid. He should not have said that. What the Nazis did was unexcusable. However, please keep this in mind - that being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one's opinions on other topics.
China is one of the five most powerful members of the UN (the permanent members of the security council). Though the security council does not have much to do with the investigation directly, there is no gainsaying that China has had a certain degree of influence. It is entirely possible that the UN decided to overlook their crimes due to pressure from China.
When I told you that the Xinjiang camps are committing genocide or when you saw Zenz claiming the same how did you feel? You were thinking that I gobbled up and regurgitated all the US propaganda and that this is just a conspiracy theory because I couldn't give concrete proof, weren't you? This is also exactly how I feel toward your claims except that the propaganda you gobbled up were Chinese. Besides, I am pretty sure that when women are given more education, they decide not to have so many children either by using condoms or having less sex rather than getting IUDs.
No offence but your lack of media literacy is showing..
You understand that using WaPo as a source for American wrong doings is not the same as using WaPo as a source for wrong doings it's geopolitical rival. You'd need a Chinese outlet admitting to their faults for it to be equivalent..
Nonetheless I clicked on your link:
Literally the second paragraph...
I hope I don't sound rude but it really sounds like you only consider WaPo trustworthy when it's convenient for you. Besides, the media in China are heavily controlled by the government. I don't think a news outlet would survive if they dared to report such things.
Sorry, I don't understand how that makes this any less trustworthy?
Here's a photo of a camp in the USA.
I actually don't know if this image is fake or not, could be from a film for all I know. It's a DDG search result. But then you didn't actually research the origin of your photo either.
Edit: This comment does not address the ICE concentration camps and is only replying to the quoted text. To be clear.
My photo was taken from the Wikipedia article for the Xinjiang internment camps. Taken in April 2017, the image is titled Detainee in a Xinjiang Re-education Camp located in Lop County listening to "de-radicalization" talks. The photo you linked to was taken in the Arizona State Prison Complex: https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/05/20/early-release-arizona-prisons-matter-public-health-not-politics/5218072002/.
I actually already knew where you found that photo. But it's simply mislabelled on Wikipedia. This is where the image is from. https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pc
This is the earliest upload of that image known to me. It's from a regular prison in Xinjiang where convicted criminals who went through a legal trial are incarcerated. It's not related to the de-radicalisation program that the western media calls cultural genocide and suspect is happening in concentration camps.
Edit: New link.
Sorry, your link
https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pcis broken. Web.archive.org tells me that it "got an HTTP 301 response at crawl time." Can you take a screenshot of it?What is that plot about?
Life expectancy— how the US government treats its people
The life expectancy of China in 2021 was 77.13 - not that much higher than the US.
🐕🧠🫵
Thank you.
Yes but the USA has a PPP GDP PC of 76400 G–K$ and China has 21500 G–K$. How can you in good faith compare those?
(Life expectancy for Mexico, marginally richer per capita than China is 70. Life expectancy for the Philippines (poorer pc than China) is 69.)
The fact that China is in the same ballpark should be evidence enough that their policies are more people-orientated. The fact that they're ahead despite the huge disadvantage should be a huge point of shame for the USA, not something to be dismissed with saying the gap is small.
Covid
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Well, not quite. It's more akin to if the union was pushed back and was limited to new-england.
The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren't the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.
Also one of these states is an authoritarian piece of shit, and it's definitely not Taiwan.
The left wing of the KMT split from Chiang's KMT in 1948 to form the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT. It was headed by a senior KMT General and Song Ching Ling the widow of Sun Yat Sen. Madam Song would later serve as a Vice President of the People's Republic of China and the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT holds seats in the National People's Congress to this day.
If you even look at the history of the KMT, you'd see that it's incredibly prone to factionalism, including a period during the First United Front where the CPC agreed to join the KMT as a wing to fight the Warlords but left after the KMT stabbed it in the back during the Shanghai Purges.
Legally, the PRC is recognized by the UN as the sole representative of China under General Assembly Resolution 2758 and the overwhelming majority of the world's nation's recognize that there is only one China and that China is the PRC.
Cope and seethe.
Going by paper legality argument, ROC is also illegal because it wrested power from Qing. Which conquered China from Ming, which toppled Yuan, and going fast forward to Han, Qing, Zhao and Shang, neither of them also risen peacefully.
Ahhh, Chinese history. Breaking every 400-500 years into total chaos, and someone new fixes it so the cycle repeated.
Does it looks like that to you? I would say they have unparallelled cultural and civilisational continuity rarily seen in any other place. And feudal empires falling is not the gotcha you think it is, especially when you look at the absolute clusterfuck in Europe (or many other places too).
Also nice deflection.
Every great empire in human civilization has fallen. China is the only one to have fallen and then gotten back up multiple times.
Like yeah China will probably fall again in the future, but the great grandchildren of everyone on this site will be long dead by then. Contrast that with America, which has had hegemony only since 1945 and already looks like it's in terminal decline.
It will fall when they abolish the state as global communism has been achieved. Unfortunately this is still well after we and our grandkids die
They've lasted less than the British! The BRITISH!
You made your point dating to the shang, and I dont disagree. Even more, you're right, feudal empires falling isn't a gotcha.
So what about a modern state being violently overthrown? Or is this different because one violent, illegiment warlord championed "the people", and proceeded to starve 200* million of them after taking power?
Which one of these two states still maintains democratic or republican ideals for the people, a reminder that real Legitimacy lay with the people.
Sorry. Just a measley 50 million people mb. Still the worst famine in history. And 100% preventable.
Modern state is when you fund yourself off of opium profits, you appoint your gangster relatives to be in charge of state finances, your officials occasionally run off to form collaborationist governments with Imperial Japan, and you're so corrupt and incompetent that your own allies are disgusted by you and you lose a war against your own people despite the military and financial backing of the most powerful country in the world.
Democratic and republican ideals is when you retreat to an island because you got your ass handed to you and then perpetrate the White Terror against your people for 40 years.
Well, as i read about the history of China, previous entity of Xia apparently didn't conquered anyone and even if they did, we don't know, written history of China start from the late Shang period.
About the rest Tankiedesantski answered you about the "republican ideas" of ROC, i can only add that even if you deflect yet again to "real Legitimacy lay with the people" there is nothing more really legitimate by the people than popular revolution which led to the state being supported by 90% of population.
Lol
Reds killed trillions
Mao paid the clouds not to rain.
What is it with you right wingers and trivalizing the holocaust?
Kindly show me where the fuck I mentioned the holocaust? Also don't appreciate you straw maning me for not simping over china.
Google "double genocide theory" dweeb.
You idiots love pretending reality is some history memes you saw on the internet, don't you?
Mmmhm, I just adore conversing with nothing but the finest internet historians, I assure you.
I'm keenly aware of the actual history, but don't give enough of a fuck to do it justice.
“I know the history I just don’t care enough to remember it”
???
somehow I doubt that
Tell that to the indigenous people of Taiwan. I bet they'd love to hear about how their genocide was "non-authoritarian".
40-ish years of military dictatorship, but they made a 228 park so it's okay
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Is that how Taiwan is seen in SEA?
Nobody in SEA likes Taiwan. It doesn't help that Taiwan has two naval bases in the South China Sea and always sides with the PRC against the rest of SEA over the SCS, mostly using the justification of "acktually the SCS is part of Chinese naval waters and we're officially called the Republic of China, so this is Taiwanese naval waters btw since we're officially called the Republic of China."
TIL tbh
It's hard to see through US political discourse
By design
Is that a bad thing? In your hypothetical situation, Chinese people should be happy about their government selling weaponry to Texas, and the Americans should not support their sale of weaponry. To compare this to the real world scenario, Chinese people should feel angry about this and Americans should feel good. I don't really get the point you're trying to convey with your analogy.
Not everyone is a chauvinistic shithead