I think a material difference between Iraq (v2 anyway) and Ukraine is that they can keep doing the "well Russia was the aggressor" thing indefinitely even if the reality is more complicated.
also yes obviously some libs are still stubborn about Iraq, the worst ones, but for the most part its generally agreed that the Iraq War was a bad thing.
Key difference: there's no US boots on the ground in Ukraine. Like with Vietnam, a lot of the Iraq rhetoric is centered on the american soldiers who were killed and maimed. Notice how US/NATO intervention in Libya and Kosovo, which was accomplished primarily through air power and without significant losses, has not had any critical reexamination—I would think the lack of american corpses has a good deal to do with that
disclaimer: this is not financial advice, i am just a small worm
At first I thought that this was the one comment here I agreed with the most, and I might still think that, but the difference is that Libya/Kosovo were "over" much faster than Ukraine. The boogeymen were quickly taken out, while Russia just refuses to collapse, at least so far.
In my extremely limited experience, outside of the internet, libs don't really care about Ukraine anymore and won't push back if you criticize Biden giving tens of billions of dollars to Nazis. This in itself may be kind of a re-examination on their part? They also feel the same way about covid, though. It just doesn't matter at all to them, even though it's actually still extremely important (as is Ukraine). I do have to kind of wonder what they care about at the moment? They were so happy when Biden won the election, but I think most of us strongly suspected that this was going to be as good as it got for them for quite some time. Who knows, it might even be their last major victory.
Even when they oppose war, it's backed by nationalist reasons.
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Does your SO still love you?
I'll let you know when she exists :')
There’s definitely US boots on the ground, just like there are in Syria, Yemen, Kenya, Pakistan and all the other nations we don’t officially invade. There are literally US soldiers, spec ops and bases and officers stationed there coordinating raids, launching drones, doing spec ops.
Americans think there is this hard solid line between invasion with boots and other activities, but in reality there’s no discrete border it just slowly becomes a full invasion
Advisors and intelligence guys are not the same as the US occupying in force.
It's a gradient and blurred line that further blurs over time as "intelligence guys" start doing special operations and assassinations of political and military targets, and the "advisors" are launching recon drones and coordinating the Ukrainian military. Oh, not to mention all the "recently retired" military "mercenaries" driving the tanks.
Eventually US soldiers do occupy held positions as well, as seen in Syria where there are thousands of literal US troops occupying the country yet almost every American would say we never invaded Syria if you ask them. Huh weird, if you never invaded how did thousands of your troops set up bases in a nation you were not invited into? If you never invaded, why are you launching cruise missiles and drone strikes into Syrian territory? This American fiction about "boots on the ground" is a Liberal delusion to assuage the cognitive dissonance they have about being a bloodthirsty world-conquering military empire.
Then after the fact, if Liberals ever acknowledge their complicity in an invasion, it's framed as "the US got pulled, unwilling, into a quagmire" as if that wasn't the full intention the entire time and they didn't get pulled but were pushed in by the US government and MIC - first as advisors, then as intel guys, then as mercenaries, then the drone strikes as "anti-terrorism" operations, then as "peace-keepers" in a coalition force. It's a smooth gradient, there is no wall.
I and a lot of others protested the Iraq invasion before it took place, and predicted the somewhat obvious quagmire that resulted. I would have protested the Russian invasion as well if I were a Russian citizen and if it would have been safe enough to do so (Putin’s dictatorship makes that purely hypothetical though).
Did you also protest the NATO coup in Ukraine in 2014?
I think we may disagree on the origins of the Maidan Protests, the Crimea annexation, and at this point probably even the end of WW2 and Soviet Union.
Edit: aw shit, I just realized where I am.
youre on the history channel motherfucker
Did you protest arming Nazi militias like Azov that posted videos of themselves crucifying people and burning them alive or giving them electric shocks while making them dig a grave?
?!?!
That's a lot of words for "no."
Just say you supported the Maidan coup.
Most Westerners who watched the news did
At the time my impression was "brave Ukrainian students ousting their corrupt Russian minion of a president so they can join the EU and become a proper European country instead of a depressing Soviet hellhole"
That's still the level most people are operating on
I think a lot of people naivly-as-opposed-to-maliciously believe what doublepepperoni said.
I think people on Hexbear often forget how different the world looks to the average person in the West
I mean, I exist in the West, I'm well aware of how bad the typical person's politics regarding foreign countries are.
Love to know that we're making a reputation for ourselves
Average Operation Unthinkable supporter
ain’t that some shit. please enlighten us all what you meant by this? Do you think the wrong side won the war? Are you saying you think the world would have been a better place if Nazi Germany hadn’t been defeated by the Soviet Union? We are all ears.
Based on their other opinions, I dont think they would (openly) go that far which is why I'm kind of baffled by the statement and want to know what the hell they DID mean. Like maybe they dont think the USSR won the war alone. Or they believe Double Genocide Theory? Idk.
ETA: Oh maybe its that they think Operation Unthinkable was a good idea like another poster suggested.
One of us lives on Earth, the other lives on Planet CIA.
?????????????
The nazis were talked into defeat, it was the power of love obviously
What do you mean by this?
Coward.
Who took Berlin?
Who screwed it up and gave it all back?
Again ?????????? What the fuck does this even mean?
The western powers put ex nazis in control in West Germany but I dont think thats what you're asking about.
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Naw, waste of time arguing with conspiracy nutters.
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Conspiracy nutter is when you think history has more moving parts than a Marvel script
Your side is the one giving ten minute standing ovations to veterans of the 14th SS volunteer division to own the ruskies and re-writing history
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remember after Ferguson when Putin had the US police murder several BLM leaders in separate incidents and then light their cars on fire?
If I were Russian I would have volunteered to fight with the DPR in 2014 and would be posting Z and helping destroy AmeriKKKa
Not very revolutionary defeatism of you comrade.
revolutionary defeatism is for use against imperialists, not anti-imperialists combatting the world hegemonic empire. If I was in Syria I would be fighting for Assad. If I were in Iraq during US invasion I would be fighting for Saddam. If I were in Libya, I would fight for Gaddafi. The right to resist imperialism supersedes all else, it's the primary contradiction.
Most MLs I have spoken to think revolutionairy defeatism absolutely applies to Russia and praise activists fighting the draft there.
Russia may be a lesser evil on the geopolitical stage but treating them as purely an antiimperialist force worth uncritically supporting to the point where you actually take up arms for their revanchist activities (and yes, part of the motive for Russia's actions is revanchism, NATO encirclement and Donbass also factor in, but denying the revanchism is foolish).
Well I disagree with most western MLs and instead agree with DPRK, China, Cuba and other AES ML nations who are allied with Russia
Russia has won my trust after Syria and Belarus, they have consistently acted in an anti-imperialist manner for many conflicts now. Why they are acting in this manner is not relevant, only that they are. China, DPRK, Cuba all agree with me
Geopoltiically aligning with Russia is different from being a Russian citizen living in Russia. Do you condemn Russians fighting being drafted into a war they don't want to participate in?
Kim Jong Un
Do you believe you and other westerners understand anti-imperialism and what needs to be done for the victory of socialism more than the official position of the most advanced socialist nation on Earth that is basically defined by its anti-imperialist stance and almost always materially supporting the correct side of any conflict (even when westerners cry)?
Again, AES countries aligning with Russia isn't the same as a Russian citizen living in Russia.
Read comrade KJU’s comment one hundred times as punishment for your chauvinism
I read it. I agree with the DPRK aligning with Russia (not that they can have much influence there). I'm still talking about Russian citizens living in Russia, not the leaders of AES countries.
You cant just throw around terms like "westener" and "chauvanism" because they make you feel right lol.
So you think KJU is cynically lying and that the DPRK actually doesn’t support anti-imperialism?
When my views align with AES and your views align with western leftists, yes I can and I will
Yeah, disengage.
I believe it’s a fight for Russia’s continued existence and is as necessary as the great patriotic war. Russians should fight if they don’t want the US to loot their corpses again
Thinking slavery is good doesnt seem very leftist to me but ok. Sounds like you've forgotten the critical in critical support. Putin isnt a anti-imperialist ideologue, and modern Russia isnt an anti-imperialist force by nature, it just happens that Russias goals align with antiimperialism right now.
Also, to respond to a previous point, bourgeoise countries shouldn't "earn your trust", that is not material analysis.
Did the USSR “enslave” the conscripts to the red army? Or maybe existential war is a valid reason to take certain measures?
Again, ideologues and ideology are not relevant. Only outcomes. Russia is fighting for its survival against imperialists. That means they should not be sabotaged by anyone who considers themselves an anti-imperialist. Imperialism is the primary contradiction. Imperialism is the primary contradiction. Imperialism is the primary contradiction. Have you internalized this yet?
You know what? Disengage. Badgering me with repeated slogans that I already believe is just talking down so I'm out.
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