I literally work with children professionally lmao. This is just basic developmental science. Sansa had poor judgement there, thats all. Her judgement was clouded by a crush, something kids her age often do.
Completely agree with this take. Children can't be held to the same standard as adults. That's actually what makes her character interesting and realistic. She is taken in and manipulated in ways she's not capable of understanding. In fact she's so easily manipulated because she has in fact been indoctrinated to believe in handsome princes and beautiful queens being good, and that her only goal in life should be ro fall in love and marry the most highly socially ranking nobleman possible.
I've heard people complain about how she acts while she's trapped and being abused by the Lannisters too. Like, she's 11. She does lack agency, because she's a literal child being abused.
As someone who used to be bullied constantly as a kid, I see this very differently than you, it seems. I have zero sympathy for supporters of bullies.
I went and reviewed the passage myself, and I admit I hadn't remembered Sansa's part in it quite right. She mostly seems to be caught in a tide not of her own making during the scene itself. But she is given two very clear indicators that Joffrey is human garbage in that scene: he threatens (and indeed, assaults--he cuts the boy's face) an unarmed servant boy with a sword, knowing full well that any defense the boy offers will earn execution. And then when she goes to soothe him after everyone has left, he's awful to her ("his eyes snapped open...and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. 'Then go,' he spit at her.") and storms off.
I will grant that she didn't have a good option when Ned wanted her to tell him what happened, in front of both Joffrey and Arya, and the king and queen to boot, but she later defends Joffrey to Arya when she brings up Mycah's death ("Your butcher's boy attacked the prince," Sansa says, knowing that isn't true, to justify Mycah's murder, in a private conversation with only her father, her sister, and a Septa; this is not just some lighthearted shit here, and politics isn't an excuse in this case either).
I happen to believe that children do deserve to be treated as moral creatures, and judged for their failures to maintain proper ethics. The difference between them and adults is the likelihood of growth, not the existence of moral faculties.
I was bullied too? Did you think someone with Autism in their name avoided bullying? I forgive my bullies though because they were children.
As for Sansa, look at what BurgerPunk said. Thats what was going on with her and how she viewed Joffrey.
I happen to believe that children do deserve to be treated as moral creatures, and judged for their failures to maintain proper ethics.
Their brains arent fully developed yet. They dont have a fully developed sense of morality. If by judged for their failures you mean adults teaching them proper ethics after they fail then agreed. If you mean hating children for their failures to meet adult standards, disagree.
Look, I wouldn't say I hate early Sansa, but she is an incredibly frustrating character. She gets better, but she's a little shit at the beginning. I don't think it's somehow wrong to view a kid as a little shit, knowing that they will likely become a better person as they mature. As an educator(?) I suppose it's more important to try to reserve judgment on kids, but I think that may have led you to have something of an overdeveloped view of what is and isn't acceptable vis a vis forming opinions about children as people. The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
Right no obviously i agree with this as an educator. Activly intervening and leading kids in the right moral direction is one of the most important things a person can do. But im not Sansa's teacher, so i cant intervene and help her grow better. So all i have left is the sympathy for her bad situation and unfair upbringing.
I get that, and I think this conversation helped me appreciate at least one of the ways educators have to adjust their mode of thinking to do their jobs effectively. But I also don't think it's entirely wrong to have opinions about children as good or bad, and I think you implicitly acknowledged that when you didn't take issue with my characterization of Joffrey (also a child, after all) as "human garbage." (Sansa, ironically, isn't a stark enough example.)
True, but he crosses more serious lines and, I think, has more agency in his choices.
I actually do have some sympathy for Joff though, Robert's reaction to seeing early sociopathic tendencies was to beat him, and being Cersei's kid is not an easy life lol. Joff is written as a bad seed who was always going to be bad though, which i think is a flaw in Martin's writing. I chose to kill the author there and interpert him as more of a 50/50 nature vs nurture situation, where better parents and a lack of power corrupting he could have turned out better. I realize, of course, that Tommen and Myrcella turned out decent kids under similar circumstances. But hey that happens irl too. Kids react to abuse differently. Me and my sister definitely did.
Another charachter thats similar to Joff for me in that he's a child who's awful and has agency, and who's written as a bad seed, but who I have some sympathy for because of life circumstances and being a child, is Viserys.
I do get your pov on judging kid charachters more now that youve explained it though. I appreciate that.
That's actually a very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing that!
(I admit I did also have to soften my own perspective on Sansa when I went back to the source material--Martin is careful to ensure that Sansa is written as just a kid who gets caught up in forces she doesn't understand and can't control, and is crushing on the worst possible dude. She really doesn't have all that much agency, and if I'm honest I think it was my inner child being unwilling to sympathize with someone who backed up a bully that kinda drove my perspective originally.)
I would point you to the interaction between Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, and the butcher's boy. She is not just a teen girl, she's a shitty person.Not going to convince me to apply the term "shitty person" to a prepubescent child. Reassess how you analyze child characters.
Book 1 Sansa consistently made bad choices, but she was also caught in awful situations. Kids make bad choices. Their brains arent developed.
If you think backing up a violent bully isn't a choice worthy of moral judgment, then I think you should reassess how you see children.I literally work with children professionally lmao. This is just basic developmental science. Sansa had poor judgement there, thats all. Her judgement was clouded by a crush, something kids her age often do.
Completely agree with this take. Children can't be held to the same standard as adults. That's actually what makes her character interesting and realistic. She is taken in and manipulated in ways she's not capable of understanding. In fact she's so easily manipulated because she has in fact been indoctrinated to believe in handsome princes and beautiful queens being good, and that her only goal in life should be ro fall in love and marry the most highly socially ranking nobleman possible.
Exactly thank you.
I've heard people complain about how she acts while she's trapped and being abused by the Lannisters too. Like, she's 11. She does lack agency, because she's a literal child being abused.
As someone who used to be bullied constantly as a kid, I see this very differently than you, it seems. I have zero sympathy for supporters of bullies.
I went and reviewed the passage myself, and I admit I hadn't remembered Sansa's part in it quite right. She mostly seems to be caught in a tide not of her own making during the scene itself. But she is given two very clear indicators that Joffrey is human garbage in that scene: he threatens (and indeed, assaults--he cuts the boy's face) an unarmed servant boy with a sword, knowing full well that any defense the boy offers will earn execution. And then when she goes to soothe him after everyone has left, he's awful to her ("his eyes snapped open...and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. 'Then go,' he spit at her.") and storms off.
I will grant that she didn't have a good option when Ned wanted her to tell him what happened, in front of both Joffrey and Arya, and the king and queen to boot, but she later defends Joffrey to Arya when she brings up Mycah's death ("Your butcher's boy attacked the prince," Sansa says, knowing that isn't true, to justify Mycah's murder, in a private conversation with only her father, her sister, and a Septa; this is not just some lighthearted shit here, and politics isn't an excuse in this case either).
I happen to believe that children do deserve to be treated as moral creatures, and judged for their failures to maintain proper ethics. The difference between them and adults is the likelihood of growth, not the existence of moral faculties.
I was bullied too? Did you think someone with Autism in their name avoided bullying? I forgive my bullies though because they were children.
As for Sansa, look at what BurgerPunk said. Thats what was going on with her and how she viewed Joffrey.
Their brains arent fully developed yet. They dont have a fully developed sense of morality. If by judged for their failures you mean adults teaching them proper ethics after they fail then agreed. If you mean hating children for their failures to meet adult standards, disagree.
Look, I wouldn't say I hate early Sansa, but she is an incredibly frustrating character. She gets better, but she's a little shit at the beginning. I don't think it's somehow wrong to view a kid as a little shit, knowing that they will likely become a better person as they mature. As an educator(?) I suppose it's more important to try to reserve judgment on kids, but I think that may have led you to have something of an overdeveloped view of what is and isn't acceptable vis a vis forming opinions about children as people. The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
Frusterating is fine. I even somewhat agree.
Right no obviously i agree with this as an educator. Activly intervening and leading kids in the right moral direction is one of the most important things a person can do. But im not Sansa's teacher, so i cant intervene and help her grow better. So all i have left is the sympathy for her bad situation and unfair upbringing.
I get that, and I think this conversation helped me appreciate at least one of the ways educators have to adjust their mode of thinking to do their jobs effectively. But I also don't think it's entirely wrong to have opinions about children as good or bad, and I think you implicitly acknowledged that when you didn't take issue with my characterization of Joffrey (also a child, after all) as "human garbage." (Sansa, ironically, isn't a stark enough example.)
True, but he crosses more serious lines and, I think, has more agency in his choices.
I actually do have some sympathy for Joff though, Robert's reaction to seeing early sociopathic tendencies was to beat him, and being Cersei's kid is not an easy life lol. Joff is written as a bad seed who was always going to be bad though, which i think is a flaw in Martin's writing. I chose to kill the author there and interpert him as more of a 50/50 nature vs nurture situation, where better parents and a lack of power corrupting he could have turned out better. I realize, of course, that Tommen and Myrcella turned out decent kids under similar circumstances. But hey that happens irl too. Kids react to abuse differently. Me and my sister definitely did.
Another charachter thats similar to Joff for me in that he's a child who's awful and has agency, and who's written as a bad seed, but who I have some sympathy for because of life circumstances and being a child, is Viserys.
I do get your pov on judging kid charachters more now that youve explained it though. I appreciate that.
That's actually a very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing that!
(I admit I did also have to soften my own perspective on Sansa when I went back to the source material--Martin is careful to ensure that Sansa is written as just a kid who gets caught up in forces she doesn't understand and can't control, and is crushing on the worst possible dude. She really doesn't have all that much agency, and if I'm honest I think it was my inner child being unwilling to sympathize with someone who backed up a bully that kinda drove my perspective originally.)