Look, I wouldn't say I hate early Sansa, but she is an incredibly frustrating character. She gets better, but she's a little shit at the beginning. I don't think it's somehow wrong to view a kid as a little shit, knowing that they will likely become a better person as they mature. As an educator(?) I suppose it's more important to try to reserve judgment on kids, but I think that may have led you to have something of an overdeveloped view of what is and isn't acceptable vis a vis forming opinions about children as people. The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
Right no obviously i agree with this as an educator. Activly intervening and leading kids in the right moral direction is one of the most important things a person can do. But im not Sansa's teacher, so i cant intervene and help her grow better. So all i have left is the sympathy for her bad situation and unfair upbringing.
I get that, and I think this conversation helped me appreciate at least one of the ways educators have to adjust their mode of thinking to do their jobs effectively. But I also don't think it's entirely wrong to have opinions about children as good or bad, and I think you implicitly acknowledged that when you didn't take issue with my characterization of Joffrey (also a child, after all) as "human garbage." (Sansa, ironically, isn't a stark enough example.)
True, but he crosses more serious lines and, I think, has more agency in his choices.
I actually do have some sympathy for Joff though, Robert's reaction to seeing early sociopathic tendencies was to beat him, and being Cersei's kid is not an easy life lol. Joff is written as a bad seed who was always going to be bad though, which i think is a flaw in Martin's writing. I chose to kill the author there and interpert him as more of a 50/50 nature vs nurture situation, where better parents and a lack of power corrupting he could have turned out better. I realize, of course, that Tommen and Myrcella turned out decent kids under similar circumstances. But hey that happens irl too. Kids react to abuse differently. Me and my sister definitely did.
Another charachter thats similar to Joff for me in that he's a child who's awful and has agency, and who's written as a bad seed, but who I have some sympathy for because of life circumstances and being a child, is Viserys.
I do get your pov on judging kid charachters more now that youve explained it though. I appreciate that.
That's actually a very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing that!
(I admit I did also have to soften my own perspective on Sansa when I went back to the source material--Martin is careful to ensure that Sansa is written as just a kid who gets caught up in forces she doesn't understand and can't control, and is crushing on the worst possible dude. She really doesn't have all that much agency, and if I'm honest I think it was my inner child being unwilling to sympathize with someone who backed up a bully that kinda drove my perspective originally.)
Look, I wouldn't say I hate early Sansa, but she is an incredibly frustrating character. She gets better, but she's a little shit at the beginning. I don't think it's somehow wrong to view a kid as a little shit, knowing that they will likely become a better person as they mature. As an educator(?) I suppose it's more important to try to reserve judgment on kids, but I think that may have led you to have something of an overdeveloped view of what is and isn't acceptable vis a vis forming opinions about children as people. The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
Frusterating is fine. I even somewhat agree.
Right no obviously i agree with this as an educator. Activly intervening and leading kids in the right moral direction is one of the most important things a person can do. But im not Sansa's teacher, so i cant intervene and help her grow better. So all i have left is the sympathy for her bad situation and unfair upbringing.
I get that, and I think this conversation helped me appreciate at least one of the ways educators have to adjust their mode of thinking to do their jobs effectively. But I also don't think it's entirely wrong to have opinions about children as good or bad, and I think you implicitly acknowledged that when you didn't take issue with my characterization of Joffrey (also a child, after all) as "human garbage." (Sansa, ironically, isn't a stark enough example.)
True, but he crosses more serious lines and, I think, has more agency in his choices.
I actually do have some sympathy for Joff though, Robert's reaction to seeing early sociopathic tendencies was to beat him, and being Cersei's kid is not an easy life lol. Joff is written as a bad seed who was always going to be bad though, which i think is a flaw in Martin's writing. I chose to kill the author there and interpert him as more of a 50/50 nature vs nurture situation, where better parents and a lack of power corrupting he could have turned out better. I realize, of course, that Tommen and Myrcella turned out decent kids under similar circumstances. But hey that happens irl too. Kids react to abuse differently. Me and my sister definitely did.
Another charachter thats similar to Joff for me in that he's a child who's awful and has agency, and who's written as a bad seed, but who I have some sympathy for because of life circumstances and being a child, is Viserys.
I do get your pov on judging kid charachters more now that youve explained it though. I appreciate that.
That's actually a very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing that!
(I admit I did also have to soften my own perspective on Sansa when I went back to the source material--Martin is careful to ensure that Sansa is written as just a kid who gets caught up in forces she doesn't understand and can't control, and is crushing on the worst possible dude. She really doesn't have all that much agency, and if I'm honest I think it was my inner child being unwilling to sympathize with someone who backed up a bully that kinda drove my perspective originally.)