Directly and indirectly btw
You could make the argument that he is responsible for every death on that show
- Show
This take i found is hilarious because Walter himself tells Skyler otherwise. "I did it for me" literally comes out of his mouth.
What zero media literacy does to a mfer. Literally the entire theme of the show was Walter's pride leading to his downfall.
Me admitting to my brother in law that I'm Walter White just because it's cool and bad ass. Nothing to see here. The show doesn't do theme and subtext. It was a filler episode literally about a fly in the lab
And you just know Andrew here isn't providing for anyone, not even himself.
Even before that, he admitted it to Jesse when refusing to sell out. He says that he dumped Gretchen, sold his share of his startup for pennies, and now his wife hates him, and his son ignores him.
The only thing he had left to show he was a genius was his meth, and the only family he had left was Jesse which is why he didn’t want either of them going away even if it means tens of millions of dollars.
she's better at being a criminal than Walter. Like, so much better. Walter just lets his ego get in the way of everything. He's not even a good chemistry teacher.
Literally all Skylar does is implement Saul’s advice, or what would be his advice if he knew the scope of Walt’s problems. The only thing I see him doing differently is suggesting to kill Beneke instead of paying his taxes. But other than that, she decided not to divorce a dangerous criminal with dangerous enemies because she was afraid everyone would look down on Walt lol. She did it to protect his ego even though she could’ve prioritized Jr’s safety, and really that’s the main reason people should hate her, but no it’s because she is uppity
She did it to protect his ego even though she could’ve prioritized Jr’s safety, and really that’s the main reason people should hate her
I have literally never seen this take from her haters and it makes so much sense. It’s right there. She’s a woman endangering her children. Even the misogynists should be against that.
She should've just embezzled the pants off of him so much that he'll think he's in the pilot again.
Probably an interesting commentary on how society has double standards for women and how corrupt and chauvinistic men are tolerated in society or even admired.
The funnier take would be that Walter White was able to gaslight the audience even after the show ended.
A good portion of the fanbase is manipulated by Gus when he gave a speech to Walt about being a man lol. Dude had informants out the wazoo and knew exactly which buttons to push to get Walt to cook, going so far as to pretending he had children during their little dinner.
After watching Gus’ caution in BCS, you get the whole picture and realize how much of a dumbass Walt is. A genius chemist, sure, but a dumbass who thought he would unironically be the one knocking when in reality Gus’ 500 cameras and bodyguards saw him before he even reached his house.
honestly surprised that a wife who supported her husband and didn't snitch gets so much hate. dude fucked around and did all kinds of dumb shit behind her back. dude turned down several dont-need-to-do-crime-anymore-free cards. I need to invent a more militant type of feminism to counter this.
It's weird because if you wanted to hate on a woman in Breaking Bad so much, why would you hate Skyler, who was way more complicit with Walt than Marie? I get the idea that people hate Skyler because she spoils the fun, but it just doesn't hold up because Marie does the same thing, and at worst people just treat her like a meme. For that matter, Lydia is also somewhat antagonistic to Walt, and again at worst some people treat her like a meme. Is it just that Skyler gets more screen time?
Something about mom-aged blonde women drives TV fans a little wild for some reason. Also see the reaction to Walking Dead Andrea. And while she is obviously evil, i always found the Cersei hatedom a little dissproportional. Especially early on.
CW: SA
Cersei spends half her time plotting sexual assault and the other half doing murder. She is a terrible person. What are we doing here.
Her first noteworthy on screen deed in both book and series is incest followed by arguing for the murder of a child. She creates a systemic murderous purge of dwarves, she lets one of her children sexually assault the other, she's a violent misogynist, and she's not good at anything. She's incredibly hateable, that's the point of the character. If people think she's a monster then people have understood what's happening in the story. She's like opposite skylar
Yeah but if you hate her with a fury and dont hate certain men in the show its still disproportional. Hating Cersei and loving Robert is very common in the fandom. Or hating Cersei but considering Littlefinger love to hate.
Also, again, a lot of the depths of her evil do not manifest until later on. Yes she argues for killing Bran but the level of spitting vitriol she got in early seasons compared to male charachters other than Joffrey was simply not proportional to her actual actions.
I never argued that youre not supposed to hate her. Its not the same as Skyler.
It just was, I'm sorry. Cersei is supposed to be hated. You can argue that there's a misogynist tinge to the fact that the evil characters who we are meant to hate are disproportionately women, and that they rarely get the credit of being "cool" the same way male villains do. But Cersei was always hateable, from her first moment on the pages to her last moment on screen she spends most of her time either actively engaging in evil or being just kind of an unlikable dick.
The difference between Robert and Cersei is that Robert is a friend of the "main character" when introduced, outwardly charming, cracks jokes, and is a total dipshit who didn't set out to be king, who sucks at it, and who hurts people unintentionally (His only genuine bile is spared for Targaryans.) , while Cersei WANTS to be queen and does all her actions intentionally. It is totally a good faith reading to find Robert personable and charming and to find Cersei vile. You're SUPPOSED to find Cersei vile. The abuse she suffered at the hands of Robert, her father's neglect of her, and her struggles with the role of women is meant to add layers to her decisions, her embrace of Robert's worst traits, and her misogyny (Also one of Robert's traits, but Cersei is one of the most misogynist character in a book series that also includes a theocrat who doesn't consider women capable of true thought) not excuse it or make it sympathetic. Your problem here is with the story of ASOIAF.Edit:
CW: SA
Like even if we can both agree that Robert isn't a moral character. The difference in tone between the two is just not very conducive to your argument here. Robert mean spirited jokes involved sending a squire out for a nonexistent doohickey, Cersei's mean spirited jokes is gleefully taunting a child with how they're about to be raped.
Robert is an abuser and no amount of affability should obscure that to anyone who's paying attention. I get why he's liked, and you analysis of that is good (besides the idea that he only hurts people accidentally, disagree with that.). And i think you make a good point that the problem is mostly in ASOIAF/GOT rather than the fanbase for simply following cues. But it does still bother me that fans dont seem to get that Robert is an abuser.
that they rarely get the credit of being "cool" the same way male villains do
This is my main problem i think. The Littlefinger example is probably better than the Robert one in that sense. But i have seen a lot of feminist analysis pointing out Cersei being hated for the same traits men are liked for, and Robert is often an example. Another one i didnt bring up though is Tywin.
Also i think the real example of fanbase mysoginy is the treatment of early season Sansa, as she was despised for acting like a normal teenage girl. Always been a source of bitterness for me that she was my fave starting around Blackwater, and other people getting on board when she "got cool".
But she didnt fit the "older blonde woman who is hated by the fandom unreasonably" point i was trying to make lol.
Not trying to argue against most of your points, but if you re-read book 1, you realize that people hate Sansa because (at the beginning of the story) she's a little brat who brazenly ignores what her father tells her to do and, in so doing, gets him killed and her entire families' lives (her own included) utterly destroyed (remember that while Ned idiotically warns Cersei that he's going to rat her out, it's Sansa who shows up and provides Cersei with all of the details of Ned's plans, in the process of whining about having to leave the city).
Obviously she grows a great deal as a character over the course of the series, but it's very easy to start hating her early on, and that kind of impression can be hard to let go of.
CW:SA
Sansa is a child who screws over her sister in a childish way in pursuit of a fairytale romance, and suffers rape, humiliation, violence, trauma and hourly threats for it. She is an idealist who believes all t he conflict is a misunderstanding that could easily be fixed because she's like 12, and sees her family die for it. Sansa is absolutely overhated as a character in a way that's obviously rooted in part by misogyny.
Yeah, I agree, and I don't think I even disagreed with anything you've said here when this conversation started anyway, but even moreso now after reconsidering the source material more carefully. When I wrote this I was offering the reasons why people might come to hate her early on, based on my own feelings during my first re-read ("dammit Sansa why would you go to Cersei, of all people? AAAAAA you're literally getting your father killed right now!"), and also then probably affording people too much benefit of the doubt for not recognizing her character's growth as the series continues.
I still view early Sansa as a very flawed character (terms like entitled and self-centered spring to mind), but I think my own issues led me to hold her more accountable than was fair (see elsewhere in the thread).
Edit: Actually, I think I do have to point out one flaw here:
CW:SA
In the book series, at least, I don't believe Sansa is ever raped; the girl who suffers at Bolton's hands is actually Jeyne Poole.
Also, please add a CW for the SA reference.
spoiler
She is not raped by Joffrey. She's groomed by Petyr, and possibly assaulted by The Hound. She is also stripped naked in public which I would count as sexual assault.
.
Tyrion also leaves her alone, despite constant pressure from literally everyone around him to do otherwise. And then she's just in a series of unrealized bethrothals.
Anyway, this doesn't detract from your overall point: she suffers horribly for whatever relatively minor sins she's really guilty of, and yet people hate her far more than is justified, and well past the point at which she's genuinely not the same person she was at the start of the series.
Holding child charachters to adult standards will never sit well with me. The girl hadnt had her period yet.
Nah feminists have written in depth how the hatred for Sansa early on is completely unfair and mysoginist. People hate teen girls who act like teen girls. Not backing down on that one.
I would point you to the interaction between Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, and the butcher's boy. She is not just a teen girl, she's a shitty person.Not going to convince me to apply the term "shitty person" to a prepubescent child. Reassess how you analyze child characters.
Book 1 Sansa consistently made bad choices, but she was also caught in awful situations. Kids make bad choices. Their brains arent developed.
If you think backing up a violent bully isn't a choice worthy of moral judgment, then I think you should reassess how you see children.I literally work with children professionally lmao. This is just basic developmental science. Sansa had poor judgement there, thats all. Her judgement was clouded by a crush, something kids her age often do.
Completely agree with this take. Children can't be held to the same standard as adults. That's actually what makes her character interesting and realistic. She is taken in and manipulated in ways she's not capable of understanding. In fact she's so easily manipulated because she has in fact been indoctrinated to believe in handsome princes and beautiful queens being good, and that her only goal in life should be ro fall in love and marry the most highly socially ranking nobleman possible.
I've heard people complain about how she acts while she's trapped and being abused by the Lannisters too. Like, she's 11. She does lack agency, because she's a literal child being abused.
As someone who used to be bullied constantly as a kid, I see this very differently than you, it seems. I have zero sympathy for supporters of bullies.
I went and reviewed the passage myself, and I admit I hadn't remembered Sansa's part in it quite right. She mostly seems to be caught in a tide not of her own making during the scene itself. But she is given two very clear indicators that Joffrey is human garbage in that scene: he threatens (and indeed, assaults--he cuts the boy's face) an unarmed servant boy with a sword, knowing full well that any defense the boy offers will earn execution. And then when she goes to soothe him after everyone has left, he's awful to her ("his eyes snapped open...and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. 'Then go,' he spit at her.") and storms off.
I will grant that she didn't have a good option when Ned wanted her to tell him what happened, in front of both Joffrey and Arya, and the king and queen to boot, but she later defends Joffrey to Arya when she brings up Mycah's death ("Your butcher's boy attacked the prince," Sansa says, knowing that isn't true, to justify Mycah's murder, in a private conversation with only her father, her sister, and a Septa; this is not just some lighthearted shit here, and politics isn't an excuse in this case either).
I happen to believe that children do deserve to be treated as moral creatures, and judged for their failures to maintain proper ethics. The difference between them and adults is the likelihood of growth, not the existence of moral faculties.
I was bullied too? Did you think someone with Autism in their name avoided bullying? I forgive my bullies though because they were children.
As for Sansa, look at what BurgerPunk said. Thats what was going on with her and how she viewed Joffrey.
I happen to believe that children do deserve to be treated as moral creatures, and judged for their failures to maintain proper ethics.
Their brains arent fully developed yet. They dont have a fully developed sense of morality. If by judged for their failures you mean adults teaching them proper ethics after they fail then agreed. If you mean hating children for their failures to meet adult standards, disagree.
Look, I wouldn't say I hate early Sansa, but she is an incredibly frustrating character. She gets better, but she's a little shit at the beginning. I don't think it's somehow wrong to view a kid as a little shit, knowing that they will likely become a better person as they mature. As an educator(?) I suppose it's more important to try to reserve judgment on kids, but I think that may have led you to have something of an overdeveloped view of what is and isn't acceptable vis a vis forming opinions about children as people. The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
Frusterating is fine. I even somewhat agree.
The key is to recognize that a child's personality and morality aren't set in stone, not to afford them total moral latitude.
Right no obviously i agree with this as an educator. Activly intervening and leading kids in the right moral direction is one of the most important things a person can do. But im not Sansa's teacher, so i cant intervene and help her grow better. So all i have left is the sympathy for her bad situation and unfair upbringing.
I get that, and I think this conversation helped me appreciate at least one of the ways educators have to adjust their mode of thinking to do their jobs effectively. But I also don't think it's entirely wrong to have opinions about children as good or bad, and I think you implicitly acknowledged that when you didn't take issue with my characterization of Joffrey (also a child, after all) as "human garbage." (Sansa, ironically, isn't a stark enough example.)
True, but he crosses more serious lines and, I think, has more agency in his choices.
I actually do have some sympathy for Joff though, Robert's reaction to seeing early sociopathic tendencies was to beat him, and being Cersei's kid is not an easy life lol. Joff is written as a bad seed who was always going to be bad though, which i think is a flaw in Martin's writing. I chose to kill the author there and interpert him as more of a 50/50 nature vs nurture situation, where better parents and a lack of power corrupting he could have turned out better. I realize, of course, that Tommen and Myrcella turned out decent kids under similar circumstances. But hey that happens irl too. Kids react to abuse differently. Me and my sister definitely did.
Another charachter thats similar to Joff for me in that he's a child who's awful and has agency, and who's written as a bad seed, but who I have some sympathy for because of life circumstances and being a child, is Viserys.
I do get your pov on judging kid charachters more now that youve explained it though. I appreciate that.
That's actually a very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing that!
(I admit I did also have to soften my own perspective on Sansa when I went back to the source material--Martin is careful to ensure that Sansa is written as just a kid who gets caught up in forces she doesn't understand and can't control, and is crushing on the worst possible dude. She really doesn't have all that much agency, and if I'm honest I think it was my inner child being unwilling to sympathize with someone who backed up a bully that kinda drove my perspective originally.)
I never cared much for the Sansa story, because the whole thing leans way too much into GRRMs weird thing for subverting character archetypes by subjecting a 12 year old to torture that's quite frankly really creepy.
Tbf, in the books Sansa has a pretty consistent growth arc so far. Its only in the show where they go backwards and put her back into torture situations with Ramsay. Since Ramsay marries and tortures another charachter in the books, we know thats not happening there.
I also dont think Sansa's much of an "archetype subversion". Innocent naive girl who goes through abuse, but then learns to be shrewd and "play the game" is her arc. I never saw her story in the books as unnecessary torture porn. I dont even think most of it is on page or described in the books? Putting her through it on screen is more of a show thing, again.
Especially early on.
Is she not complicit in Bran's maiming in the first episode (and also early in the first book)?
Oh yeah. Not saying that she's a good person, just that the hate was disspropoetional. Also, didnt say this, but the same people will like Robert.
But early season Sansa is the real example of unfair mysoginist hate in that fandom.
Idk Cersei’s literal first action on screen is banging her twin brother and having a child pushed out of a window. I’d say the hate is pretty deserved lol
Ive commented on the rest of this, read my posts, but can i say something about the incest? I dont hate either of them for that. Neither of them is a predator. Not that incest is acceptable irl, just in this case not a reason i should hate either of them. Neither of them is the predator in their story, its just a mutually toxic relationship. The reason with incest irl is bad is that theres nearly always a predator in irl incest.
I think short hair features often in this trope too.
It’s because wife bad. The other women are just women. But skylar is wife
i think it's the screen time yeah. we want to see cool crime shit. marie is a side character and she shoplifts.
being the boring part of the show amplifies the hate she'd get anyway for existing while female, and that junior got for existing while disabled.
do people hate Kim on bCS? or are they just shocked how
she is for 40+?The fandom is usually postivs on Kim. The
factor probably plays into it. I know my irl friend who's charachter taste has mysoginist flavor can often be described by our friend group as "he hates women he doesnt want to fuck."The shoplifting part is cool, but using ber DEA connections to get out of it is kinda shitty. I honestly figured that plotpoint would be more relevant honestly, like her filching Walt's meth for evidence or something.
Even if you think skylar is annoying, and you think waltuh white is cool, theres still that goddamn nazi who shoots CHILDREN. And made jesse (the one you should root instead of waltuh) life a living hell.
Jesse is about the only good person in the entire show. Yeah he did a few fucked up things, but most of those were because Walt made him do them. He was the only one to actually get a happy ending and he deserved it.
I wouldn’t call it a happy ending. His family hates him and he has to live in near-isolation for the rest of his life.
It was really weird for me to go online one day after having finished binging BB, looking for some discussion about show, and finding out everyone hates Skyler for some reason.
"uhmmmmm maybe don't be a violent power hungry criminal and be with your family with the time you have left" "you're literally the worst"
Bad enough all the culture has been recycled lately, but now even the discourse is recycled
I think the fact that she is still hated is part of the show's brilliance: to an unbiased observer Skylar is justified, but to the viewers- who mostly get Walt's and Jesse's point of view- she's a meddling bitch.
Thats actually a good point but its worth noting that Gilligan was suprised at the reaction Skyler got and didnt intend it. But you can death of the author that for your conclusion lol.
I think most authors who have extreme patriarchal rage projected onto their work are surprised and disappointed by it. It’s the basis for the whole “man identifies a little too much with evil protagonist” trope
