The United States was founded on genocide, slavery and is evil by definition.
It is in the interest of the oligarchy to have apathetic voters.
Third-Party candidates are a waste of time.
Biden is the lesser of both evils.
It is a moral responsibility to vote for Biden.
I'm not sure how to respond, because I like the guy, but something about older Black boomers defending the Democratic Party makes for difficult conversations.
It is in the interest of the oligarchy to have apathetic voters.
You respond to this person by pointing out that lesser of two evilism creates a scenario where the Democrats constantly abandon their constituents and their political bases which generates apathetic voters on a far bigger scale. we don't have a moral imperative, the party has the moral imperative to stop doing this to win us back.
then you change the conversation about how electoral politics are most changeable on a local and state level bc let's be real, whether or not Biden is worse than Trump doesn't matter because an absolute ghoul will be in charge either way.
This is what I have been trying to say to Hexbears for a while.
The electoral system is designed to punish - if you don’t vote for Biden, you get someone even worse. So if you’re a minority you have no choice but to vote for Biden, no matter what you think of him.
People who believe that they can withhold their votes to hold the Democrats accountable or think this will somehow force the Democrats to offer better terms are the TRUE BELIEVERS of electoralism.
The Democrats never cared for your votes, they will never offer you treats in exchange for your votes, they will however punish you (and all the white liberals who are least affected by Trump’s material policies will get the satisfaction of scolding you for the next 4 years) if you don’t vote for them.
It really depends on whether you think accelerationism will build the extra-legislative power structure better, or delaying the inevitable will. There is no hope for electoralism, but there is an argument for whether it is worth delaying it while we build up our strengths.
There is at least media support for the resistance aesthetic while the republicans are in power. With Biden libs cheered on crushing the rail strike among many other things they would have been out in the streets about with Trump. If you want to build extra-legislature power I think the answer is clear.
So if you’re a minority you have no choice but to vote for Biden, no matter what you think of him.
Biden has deported more people than Trump, he's given the police more funding than Trump, he's started more wars than Trump, we've lost more of our collective rights under him than under Trump, Biden has unironically been the horror that minorities like me expected to see under the first Trump term, instead Trump despite being a nazi, didn't even top the awfulness of the Bush admin
Honestly I don't understand how mfs are still talking about harm reduction at this late date, the calculus is very simple and it does not involve holding dems "accountable" or whatever, it's very simple; under a Trump admin the American left organizes better and has more room to breath, because liberals are forced to concentrate on Trump and have to offer symbolic opposition to the reigning regime, which gives us space to grow
It's no accident the so-called "New American Left" (which is now DEAD) sprang to life in 2016, until it was obliterated by Bernie's capitulation to Biden in 2020, and this isn't an accelerationist position, because under my rubric the dems are the accelerationists, while the empowered left under a Republican admin acts more effectively as a doorstop precisely because the dems can't sacrifice the kayfabe to fully join the Republicans
One way or another the western "left" is gonna have to take a principled stand against the liberals, before we end up in the means-tested internment camp stage of American history
But to be real it's all mute anyway, Biden will win, precisely because the real-world suffering of minorities and people in the global south does not matter to Americans who vote. Biden is simply better for capital, and the American left is still dead
Honestly I don't understand how mfs are still talking about harm reduction at this late date, the calculus is very simple and it does not involve holding dems "accountable" or whatever, it's very simple; under a Trump admin the American left organizes better and has more room to breath, because liberals are forced to concentrate on Trump and have to offer symbolic opposition to the reigning regime, which gives us space to grow
Yeah. 100%.
And this isn't also an accelerationist take because being an accelerationist means you want things to actually, materially get worse.
No, I want a situation in which people will shut down the airports to prevent things from getting worse (Muslim ban) instead of one where people stay home assuming things can't get worse, and Biden can effectively pass a Muslim ban while they're snoozing...and then go ahead and start genociding Palestinians while a gob of fucking liberals still try to deny it despite what's right in front of their eyes.
Yea but if you do vote for Biden you'll also get someone worse next time around when they say "well they've put up with Hillary and now Biden we can run whoever we want"
I've been begrudgingly voting for dems my whole life and they've continued to get shitter.
In New York state the state dems are borderline indistinguishable from republicans at this point because everybody just runs as a Democrat, because the majority of people in the state vote for democrats.
At a certain point it just becomes doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Also the only time democrats have even given lip service to anything I care about in the last decade was when Trump was president and they were all marching in protests.
When dems are president all the same stuff keeps happening but if you raise the same complaints you get a lecture.
It sounds like he's thought this out and has made his personal decision. Honestly, maybe leave him be? That's not the kind of person that is easily flipped (for this objective - they may be ideal for dual power, etc.).
Conversation I had with an older black friend:
I'm not sure how to respond, because I like the guy, but something about older Black boomers defending the Democratic Party makes for difficult conversations.
A vote for today's foreign genocides, is a vote for tomorrow's domestic camps
Greater or lesser, I'm not selling my soul to any devil
You respond to this person by pointing out that lesser of two evilism creates a scenario where the Democrats constantly abandon their constituents and their political bases which generates apathetic voters on a far bigger scale. we don't have a moral imperative, the party has the moral imperative to stop doing this to win us back.
then you change the conversation about how electoral politics are most changeable on a local and state level bc let's be real, whether or not Biden is worse than Trump doesn't matter because an absolute ghoul will be in charge either way.
This is what I have been trying to say to Hexbears for a while.
The electoral system is designed to punish - if you don’t vote for Biden, you get someone even worse. So if you’re a minority you have no choice but to vote for Biden, no matter what you think of him.
People who believe that they can withhold their votes to hold the Democrats accountable or think this will somehow force the Democrats to offer better terms are the TRUE BELIEVERS of electoralism.
The Democrats never cared for your votes, they will never offer you treats in exchange for your votes, they will however punish you (and all the white liberals who are least affected by Trump’s material policies will get the satisfaction of scolding you for the next 4 years) if you don’t vote for them.
imo this simplifies things; options:
It really depends on whether you think accelerationism will build the extra-legislative power structure better, or delaying the inevitable will. There is no hope for electoralism, but there is an argument for whether it is worth delaying it while we build up our strengths.
There is at least media support for the resistance aesthetic while the republicans are in power. With Biden libs cheered on crushing the rail strike among many other things they would have been out in the streets about with Trump. If you want to build extra-legislature power I think the answer is clear.
Right
We're still building the wall, we're funding Israel in earnest, we're becoming MORE cop centric....
The only way these sort of people pay attention is when it's something they can tar the other with
Biden has deported more people than Trump, he's given the police more funding than Trump, he's started more wars than Trump, we've lost more of our collective rights under him than under Trump, Biden has unironically been the horror that minorities like me expected to see under the first Trump term, instead Trump despite being a nazi, didn't even top the awfulness of the Bush admin
Honestly I don't understand how mfs are still talking about harm reduction at this late date, the calculus is very simple and it does not involve holding dems "accountable" or whatever, it's very simple; under a Trump admin the American left organizes better and has more room to breath, because liberals are forced to concentrate on Trump and have to offer symbolic opposition to the reigning regime, which gives us space to grow
It's no accident the so-called "New American Left" (which is now DEAD) sprang to life in 2016, until it was obliterated by Bernie's capitulation to Biden in 2020, and this isn't an accelerationist position, because under my rubric the dems are the accelerationists, while the empowered left under a Republican admin acts more effectively as a doorstop precisely because the dems can't sacrifice the kayfabe to fully join the Republicans
One way or another the western "left" is gonna have to take a principled stand against the liberals, before we end up in the means-tested internment camp stage of American history
But to be real it's all mute anyway, Biden will win, precisely because the real-world suffering of minorities and people in the global south does not matter to Americans who vote. Biden is simply better for capital, and the American left is still dead
Yeah. 100%.
And this isn't also an accelerationist take because being an accelerationist means you want things to actually, materially get worse.
No, I want a situation in which people will shut down the airports to prevent things from getting worse (Muslim ban) instead of one where people stay home assuming things can't get worse, and Biden can effectively pass a Muslim ban while they're snoozing...and then go ahead and start genociding Palestinians while a gob of fucking liberals still try to deny it despite what's right in front of their eyes.
Yea but if you do vote for Biden you'll also get someone worse next time around when they say "well they've put up with Hillary and now Biden we can run whoever we want"
I've been begrudgingly voting for dems my whole life and they've continued to get shitter.
In New York state the state dems are borderline indistinguishable from republicans at this point because everybody just runs as a Democrat, because the majority of people in the state vote for democrats.
At a certain point it just becomes doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Also the only time democrats have even given lip service to anything I care about in the last decade was when Trump was president and they were all marching in protests.
When dems are president all the same stuff keeps happening but if you raise the same complaints you get a lecture.
It sounds like he's thought this out and has made his personal decision. Honestly, maybe leave him be? That's not the kind of person that is easily flipped (for this objective - they may be ideal for dual power, etc.).
If they actually believed this then they'd be doing more than just voting.