I think it's just a tiny bit silly when MLs start criticizing Bakunin for antisemitism. Because, yes, Bakunin was a virulent antisemite, and unlike Marx he himself was not Jewish nor can you point to any broader structural critique. But, I mean, guys, let's not pretend that ML movements don't have a bad history of antisemitism.
But, I mean, guys, let's not pretend that ML movements don't have a bad history of antisemitism.
Please point to me where this "bad history of antisemitism" in Marxism-Leninism is, I cannot find it.
As far as I am concerned, Marxists have more often than not been accused of being a Jewish conspiracy (see: "Judeo-Bolshevism"). The Bolsheviks were mostly composed of Jews. The USSR liberated Auschwitz. Stalin played a pivotal role in the creation of Israel.
Correct, Stalin was opposed to the continued colonization of Palestine by the British and then the Zionists. He was overruled by portions of the party that had Zionist connections. The USSR did participate and help create Israel (cringe) but Stalin opposed it.
It's always been a project that was set up by antisemites and imperialists/colonizers. There are various posts here linking the foundation of the Zionist entity with, literally, Nazi Germany.
It did not take very long for them to reverse course on their support for this project though and attempt to offer their own alternative autonomous zone in the soviet union instead.
You are analysing the situation with the benefit of the internet and hindsight. It was significantly less clear at the time with the information they had.
It did not take very long for them to reverse course on their support for this project though and attempt to offer their own alternative autonomous zone in the soviet union instead.
Yeah, but, at the time when it was being formed, Israel was already supported by UK, US, and Nazi Germany to varying degrees since the beginning. Antisemites supported it from the beginning and, yes, stuck around, unlike USSR, but it is still a terrible look that USSR ever supported it. So, I don't think that should be the selling point for why USSR/Marxists are not antisemitic. It actually supports the point of the other user, which is to say, that there's probably a history of at least some antisemitism among USSR/Marxists.
You are analysing the situation with the benefit of the internet and hindsight. It was significantly less clear at the time with the information they had.
Well, this argument could be made about pretty much anything, sure. It's kind of a pointless thing to say. I shouldn't be critical of the move to support Zionism because I know better? Anyway, I'm not even saying this is definitive proof of virulent and perversive (pervasive, even) antisemitism in Marxist history, that's not my point, but including this as a proof to dispel the idea of antisemitism in Marxism/USSR is laughably ironic.
I think the relations building caused by being allies against the nazis for ww2 caused several miscalculations. That and of course the horrors of the events of ww2 and meaning well with regards to protecting the jewish people.
This seems fairly plain to me. I'm not sure why it needs to be complicated? It seems easy to miscalculate that the project to give jews a home is a good thing in light of the holocaust rather than an antisemitic thing, particularly when everyone involved is actively spreading anti-holocaust information and germany was being reconstructed into a non-nazi entity.
I'd have to double check but I feel like I recall reading even Einstein supported it until to became clearer it was a mistake.
My point is that, even at the time, antisemites had always supported Israel and now sitting here and citing Stalin's (debatable) support for Israel as proof of Marxism/USSR not being antisemitic is simply not a good point of evidence. I agree, I don't understand why it has to get complicated? Even if USSR had good intentions, using that as proof against Leftists today arguing that there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxism just won't work well.
If we take a counterfactual and pretend that Stalin vehemently opposed the creation of Israel, would this be better as a point of evidence that Communists are not antisemitic? I don't think so. I think that if that were the case, it would be a widely used example by anti-communists that Communists are antisemitic, since they opposed the creation of a Jewish state in the wake of the Holocaust.
There are also other comments saying Stalin did not support Israel but was pushed to by Zionist people in the USSR before reversing course.
And the point isn't about how anti-Communists interpret anything, they interpret anything and everything in bad faith so they're irrelevant. There's someone here saying there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxist circles (NOT my argument, by the way) when you responded with the proof that it isn't the case because, among other things, Stalin helped found Israel. My argument is that is not a good piece of evidence there and you probably shouldn't use it in the future if you don't want to make yourself and USSR look particularly bad.
I mean her example's dumb but like the general idea that some ML movements have had reactionary tendencies is true. Like ML thinkers and movements have been notably queerphobic and especially transphobic. Like both of the notable ML parties in my own country are notorious for their transphobia, to the degree that despite being a massive liberal JK Rowling frequently speaks well of them and even quoted On Authority in support of CPGB-ML once - for all their flaws, the Trotskyite and anarchist orgs in the UK don't have anywhere near the same level of transphobia within them.
As far as I'm aware the trots don't have this problem though (and if they do they're not on the level of publicly putting out things cheering on Rishi Sunak squashing scottish pro trans laws and claiming he's defending women from male cross dressers entering female only spaces), and some of the anarchists actually helped me get HRT.
To claim it's just a Britain thing completely ignores all the British far leftist orgs that aren't transphobic. The only notable ML org to clearly not be transphobic was RFB, which collapsed years ago.
Please point to me where this "bad history of antisemitism" in Marxism-Leninism is, I cannot find it.
If you don't think Suslov was a virulent antisemite and his campaigns under Brezhnev were antisemitic, then there is no meaningful definition of the word "Antisemite" that you would accept and you are not worth talking to.
The difference is bakunin is still taken seriously as a "great thinker". Most people have probably never even heard of Suslov. I also am having a hard time finding specific antisemitic things that he said because of how minor a figure he was. In fact most of the info I can find on him is from a video game mod
He was literally one of the most significant figures in the Soviet union during the Brezhnev era, like he's right under the troika itself but okay.
Let's ignore him. Let's just go for the anti-cosmopolitan campaign itself.
Then why is it so hard to find shit he said on this if he was such a virulent antisemite? Like I want actual quotes and writings attributed to him on this matter if he was supposedly that influential
Could you provide a source for Mikhail Suslov being an antisemite? Wikipedia says absolutely nothing about him being an antisemite.
Regardless of whether Suslov was an antisemite or not, this is not the time for Communists and Anarchists to accuse each other of antisemitism, considering that Zionists are currently cynically accusing all their critics of antisemitism as a smear tactic.
I mean I know for a fact that's wrong given that his personal wikipedia page is literally classified under "Antisemitism in the soviet union", and also mentions his personal beef with the jewish antifascist committee, and his role in the anti-cosmopolitan campaign. If you're just looking at wikipedia, you could check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union and search for "Suslov", but of course wikipedia is a biased source on soviet matters.
If you want a non shitty source on the issue the Soviet union had with nationalism then The Revenge of the Past by Ronald Suny is good,
There was literally nothing in the entire body of the Wikipedia article that said or suggested that Suslov was an antisemite.
On the "Antisemitism in the Soviet Union" article, Suslov is only mentioned once in passing: "Many of Brezhnev's close advisors, most principally Mikhail Suslov, were also fervent antisemites.[34]" The only citation is an anticommunist newspaper.
Could you just... copy and paste some quotes from this book you're citing? I'm not going to read a whole book to figure out whether some random obscure character in the Soviet Union was an antisemite.
I'm not going to help you out here guy, if you see the parts about accusing jewish antifascists of being foreign spies, his role in the anti-cosmopolitan campaign, and describing closing down hebrew schools and just say "I don't see antisemitism" then I can't help you, and I'm not gonna try.
The burden of proof is on you. If you refuse to give proof to your claims, I can simply dismiss your claims without proof. It's a standard anti-communist to accuse the Soviets of antisemitism, and I don't need to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I mean your go to was wikipedia which directly mentions antisemitism by name and you still won't accept it. You are not engaging honestly, and you are the one who does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I tried pretty hard to find anything to back you up, but I came up empty. He taught at Moscow State University, which apparently had an anti-semitism problem 40 years after he stopped teaching there. He is mentioned once in a CIA document titled COMMUNISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM, where his entire presence is him saying "No, these things will not be reinsti-tuted". A historian once sent a letter to Suslov complaining about Vladimir Begun being antisemitic. I can't read Russian, so I might be missing something, but I can see no evidence that Suslov is antisemitic.
There are also a few Mikhail Suslov's that aren't connected to the one we are talking about. One of them was Jewish.
What can I say, his antisemitism really spoke to Musk.
I think it's just a tiny bit silly when MLs start criticizing Bakunin for antisemitism. Because, yes, Bakunin was a virulent antisemite, and unlike Marx he himself was not Jewish nor can you point to any broader structural critique. But, I mean, guys, let's not pretend that ML movements don't have a bad history of antisemitism.
Please point to me where this "bad history of antisemitism" in Marxism-Leninism is, I cannot find it.
As far as I am concerned, Marxists have more often than not been accused of being a Jewish conspiracy (see: "Judeo-Bolshevism"). The Bolsheviks were mostly composed of Jews. The USSR liberated Auschwitz. Stalin played a pivotal role in the creation of Israel.
Uhhh. I don't think that's the anti-antisemitism flex you intended it to be.
I heard Stalin preferred to have the Jewish state be in the USSR, and didn’t actually support “Israel.” I don’t remember the source.
Correct, Stalin was opposed to the continued colonization of Palestine by the British and then the Zionists. He was overruled by portions of the party that had Zionist connections. The USSR did participate and help create Israel (cringe) but Stalin opposed it.
I know. Israel is not a good country, but I think it's an acceptable example given the historical context of the 1940s.
It's not even about the current context, though.
It's always been a project that was set up by antisemites and imperialists/colonizers. There are various posts here linking the foundation of the Zionist entity with, literally, Nazi Germany.
It did not take very long for them to reverse course on their support for this project though and attempt to offer their own alternative autonomous zone in the soviet union instead.
You are analysing the situation with the benefit of the internet and hindsight. It was significantly less clear at the time with the information they had.
Yeah, but, at the time when it was being formed, Israel was already supported by UK, US, and Nazi Germany to varying degrees since the beginning. Antisemites supported it from the beginning and, yes, stuck around, unlike USSR, but it is still a terrible look that USSR ever supported it. So, I don't think that should be the selling point for why USSR/Marxists are not antisemitic. It actually supports the point of the other user, which is to say, that there's probably a history of at least some antisemitism among USSR/Marxists.
Well, this argument could be made about pretty much anything, sure. It's kind of a pointless thing to say. I shouldn't be critical of the move to support Zionism because I know better? Anyway, I'm not even saying this is definitive proof of virulent and perversive (pervasive, even) antisemitism in Marxist history, that's not my point, but including this as a proof to dispel the idea of antisemitism in Marxism/USSR is laughably ironic.
I think the relations building caused by being allies against the nazis for ww2 caused several miscalculations. That and of course the horrors of the events of ww2 and meaning well with regards to protecting the jewish people.
This seems fairly plain to me. I'm not sure why it needs to be complicated? It seems easy to miscalculate that the project to give jews a home is a good thing in light of the holocaust rather than an antisemitic thing, particularly when everyone involved is actively spreading anti-holocaust information and germany was being reconstructed into a non-nazi entity.
I'd have to double check but I feel like I recall reading even Einstein supported it until to became clearer it was a mistake.
Sure, my point is not that though.
My point is that, even at the time, antisemites had always supported Israel and now sitting here and citing Stalin's (debatable) support for Israel as proof of Marxism/USSR not being antisemitic is simply not a good point of evidence. I agree, I don't understand why it has to get complicated? Even if USSR had good intentions, using that as proof against Leftists today arguing that there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxism just won't work well.
If we take a counterfactual and pretend that Stalin vehemently opposed the creation of Israel, would this be better as a point of evidence that Communists are not antisemitic? I don't think so. I think that if that were the case, it would be a widely used example by anti-communists that Communists are antisemitic, since they opposed the creation of a Jewish state in the wake of the Holocaust.
Unironically, yes, it would be better.
There are also other comments saying Stalin did not support Israel but was pushed to by Zionist people in the USSR before reversing course.
And the point isn't about how anti-Communists interpret anything, they interpret anything and everything in bad faith so they're irrelevant. There's someone here saying there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxist circles (NOT my argument, by the way) when you responded with the proof that it isn't the case because, among other things, Stalin helped found Israel. My argument is that is not a good piece of evidence there and you probably shouldn't use it in the future if you don't want to make yourself and USSR look particularly bad.
I mean her example's dumb but like the general idea that some ML movements have had reactionary tendencies is true. Like ML thinkers and movements have been notably queerphobic and especially transphobic. Like both of the notable ML parties in my own country are notorious for their transphobia, to the degree that despite being a massive liberal JK Rowling frequently speaks well of them and even quoted On Authority in support of CPGB-ML once - for all their flaws, the Trotskyite and anarchist orgs in the UK don't have anywhere near the same level of transphobia within them.
deleted by creator
As far as I'm aware the trots don't have this problem though (and if they do they're not on the level of publicly putting out things cheering on Rishi Sunak squashing scottish pro trans laws and claiming he's defending women from male cross dressers entering female only spaces), and some of the anarchists actually helped me get HRT.
To claim it's just a Britain thing completely ignores all the British far leftist orgs that aren't transphobic. The only notable ML org to clearly not be transphobic was RFB, which collapsed years ago.
If you don't think Suslov was a virulent antisemite and his campaigns under Brezhnev were antisemitic, then there is no meaningful definition of the word "Antisemite" that you would accept and you are not worth talking to.
The difference is bakunin is still taken seriously as a "great thinker". Most people have probably never even heard of Suslov. I also am having a hard time finding specific antisemitic things that he said because of how minor a figure he was. In fact most of the info I can find on him is from a video game mod
He was literally one of the most significant figures in the Soviet union during the Brezhnev era, like he's right under the troika itself but okay. Let's ignore him. Let's just go for the anti-cosmopolitan campaign itself.
Imagine unironically parroting anti-communist lies about the history of the Soviet Union.
Imagine being proud of your own ignorance.
Then why is it so hard to find shit he said on this if he was such a virulent antisemite? Like I want actual quotes and writings attributed to him on this matter if he was supposedly that influential
Yeah I laughed when I read his name.
Could you provide a source for Mikhail Suslov being an antisemite? Wikipedia says absolutely nothing about him being an antisemite.
Regardless of whether Suslov was an antisemite or not, this is not the time for Communists and Anarchists to accuse each other of antisemitism, considering that Zionists are currently cynically accusing all their critics of antisemitism as a smear tactic.
I mean I know for a fact that's wrong given that his personal wikipedia page is literally classified under "Antisemitism in the soviet union", and also mentions his personal beef with the jewish antifascist committee, and his role in the anti-cosmopolitan campaign. If you're just looking at wikipedia, you could check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union and search for "Suslov", but of course wikipedia is a biased source on soviet matters. If you want a non shitty source on the issue the Soviet union had with nationalism then The Revenge of the Past by Ronald Suny is good,
There was literally nothing in the entire body of the Wikipedia article that said or suggested that Suslov was an antisemite.
On the "Antisemitism in the Soviet Union" article, Suslov is only mentioned once in passing: "Many of Brezhnev's close advisors, most principally Mikhail Suslov, were also fervent antisemites.[34]" The only citation is an anticommunist newspaper.
Could you just... copy and paste some quotes from this book you're citing? I'm not going to read a whole book to figure out whether some random obscure character in the Soviet Union was an antisemite.
I'm not going to help you out here guy, if you see the parts about accusing jewish antifascists of being foreign spies, his role in the anti-cosmopolitan campaign, and describing closing down hebrew schools and just say "I don't see antisemitism" then I can't help you, and I'm not gonna try.
The burden of proof is on you. If you refuse to give proof to your claims, I can simply dismiss your claims without proof. It's a standard anti-communist to accuse the Soviets of antisemitism, and I don't need to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I mean your go to was wikipedia which directly mentions antisemitism by name and you still won't accept it. You are not engaging honestly, and you are the one who does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Do you also accept Jeremy Corbyn's wikipedia claiming he is an antisemite and citing mainstream newspapers as the evidence for it?
I tried pretty hard to find anything to back you up, but I came up empty. He taught at Moscow State University, which apparently had an anti-semitism problem 40 years after he stopped teaching there. He is mentioned once in a CIA document titled COMMUNISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM, where his entire presence is him saying "No, these things will not be reinsti-tuted". A historian once sent a letter to Suslov complaining about Vladimir Begun being antisemitic. I can't read Russian, so I might be missing something, but I can see no evidence that Suslov is antisemitic.
There are also a few Mikhail Suslov's that aren't connected to the one we are talking about. One of them was Jewish.
Hmm.
your source is that you googled "USSR anti-semitism" and clicked on the first NATOpedia link provided to you. Then you mock other's ignorance lmao
Marx is Jewish and his "anti-semitism" is on a completely different level than people like Proudhon and Bakunin.
Proudhon/Bakunin: Purge this vile race from France, kill them all, take their women, rid us of this plague of rats
Marx: The Jewish culture currently is pro-capitalist and that's indicative of certain historical trends
You: These are exactly the same
can you not read? I literally pointed out the difference between Marx and Bakunin's antisemitic comments.
while you're waiting for the 1 day ban to expire, I do want to say that I appreciate you editing out the ableist language.