It's not that weird. The more red countries have more Roma. People aren't as racist usually about groups they don't know. I remember how Greece was designated by Eurostat as the least racist country in Europe by Eurostat, and then literally the next decade it jumped to one of the most racist according to the same survey because of the immigrant wave between the two surveys.
Yeah it's not a rule without exception. But Romani people in Spain are slightly more integrated and Andalusian culture is to a large extent tied to them. And Belgians are just extremely racist to everyone.
Most of it probably depends on who was surveyed. Spain is really racist don’t get me wrong but I think occasionally there tends to be a little level of respect towards Gitanos there, but the bar is low.
Goddamnit, we still need a confirmation on the delete button. Edit: I've been informed you can just hit the delete button again to undelete your post. I'll leave this chain as is as a monument to learning stuff.
Ah! You can still hit edit and recover your text. Here's what I accidentally deleted:
When I visited Spain in high school, I asked my Spanish teacher (from Spain), about suggestions on what to do, where to stay, etc. He gave me a bunch of good advice, then pulled me close, looked me in the eyes, and said "And watch out for the fucking g_p___s."
That was how I learned people still hated the Roma. As an American, I'd always thought that was just a weird hangup of the Nazis and their allied countries.
(It's worth noting that only later did I put his German last name and the time frame when he left Spain together with some other clues and realized he was definitely a fascist)
(Also, as I'm old this story is 3 decades old now)
As an American, I’d always thought that was just a weird hangup of the Nazis and their allied countries.
As a German, i've noticed that most people just associate the nazis with antisemitism and to a lesser extend racism, that their persecution of people with disabilities, sintizze and romanji, gays, the homeless, sex workers, jehova's witnesses and communists gets treated as a mere footnote. In some of these cases, this is slowly beginning to change, but all of these groups had to deal with massive prejudices in German society for decades after the war, and for some of these groups government repression just continued almost uninterrupted post-war. Homosexuality remained illegal well into the 1960s, communists who had just gotten out of the camps found themselves being banned from working in public sector jobs and their party getting outlawed, police kept databases on "g*psy activities" for decades. The country was still full of nazis, just as any country with a fascist regime of its own or sizeable number of collaborators or pre-war sympathizers. They just learned to be more mask on.
Yes, it took me until the 2000s to realize "de-nazification" was a lie, and to begin applying what I'd learned in college about how ancient history worked to more modern history (I, uh, am not proud it took me that long to apply what I'd learned).
And the fucked up part is that the continued racism towards the targets of the Holocaust makes sense, in that the culture & society that had enabled the Holocaust still existed. And they felt resentment for the crimes that had happened being exposed, alongside some repentance as well. Basically, "how dare you make us look bad by having been in the camps, and even worse, remind us of it by continuing to exist".
And then you think about all the anti-communist propaganda I grew up surrounded by in the 80s, and realized it was a useful fiction for NATO that all the "bad Nazis" had been removed. It feels, as an outsider, that all the reckoning that should have happened about the full scale of the Holocaust was just put into the Jewish part of the Holocaust. I'm glad you say it's changing, however. And I hope American education on it has improved, although I suspect it has a long way to go on the topic.
If I'm being honest the only thing I know about Portuguese politics is their super lax drug policy, so I had the impression they'd be more open minded in general
Any idea as to why there's such a discrepancy between Spain & Portugal? As an outsider, I've always thought there were fairly similarly culturally.
Also a bit weird that the Dutch and French are both much more tolerant than the Belgians.
There’s not many Dutch Roma to be fair. Not sure about France though, They’re one of the MOST antiziganist countries.
yeah but Paris probably skews it
Yeah, any country with big cities full of younger people may poll a bit kinder. Probably why Spain was more favourable than Portugal.
It's not that weird. The more red countries have more Roma. People aren't as racist usually about groups they don't know. I remember how Greece was designated by Eurostat as the least racist country in Europe by Eurostat, and then literally the next decade it jumped to one of the most racist according to the same survey because of the immigrant wave between the two surveys.
There are very few Roma in Belgium though and there are far more Roma in Spain than in Portugal.
Yeah it's not a rule without exception. But Romani people in Spain are slightly more integrated and Andalusian culture is to a large extent tied to them. And Belgians are just extremely racist to everyone.
Most of it probably depends on who was surveyed. Spain is really racist don’t get me wrong but I think occasionally there tends to be a little level of respect towards Gitanos there, but the bar is low.
deleted by creator
Goddamnit, we still need a confirmation on the delete button. Edit: I've been informed you can just hit the delete button again to undelete your post. I'll leave this chain as is as a monument to learning stuff.
Ah! You can still hit edit and recover your text. Here's what I accidentally deleted:
When I visited Spain in high school, I asked my Spanish teacher (from Spain), about suggestions on what to do, where to stay, etc. He gave me a bunch of good advice, then pulled me close, looked me in the eyes, and said "And watch out for the fucking g_p___s."
That was how I learned people still hated the Roma. As an American, I'd always thought that was just a weird hangup of the Nazis and their allied countries.
(It's worth noting that only later did I put his German last name and the time frame when he left Spain together with some other clues and realized he was definitely a fascist)
(Also, as I'm old this story is 3 decades old now)
You can also just undelete any deleted comment btw
Its fun watching you delete and undelete this over and over in real time
I aim to please :quokka-wink:
As a German, i've noticed that most people just associate the nazis with antisemitism and to a lesser extend racism, that their persecution of people with disabilities, sintizze and romanji, gays, the homeless, sex workers, jehova's witnesses and communists gets treated as a mere footnote. In some of these cases, this is slowly beginning to change, but all of these groups had to deal with massive prejudices in German society for decades after the war, and for some of these groups government repression just continued almost uninterrupted post-war. Homosexuality remained illegal well into the 1960s, communists who had just gotten out of the camps found themselves being banned from working in public sector jobs and their party getting outlawed, police kept databases on "g*psy activities" for decades. The country was still full of nazis, just as any country with a fascist regime of its own or sizeable number of collaborators or pre-war sympathizers. They just learned to be more mask on.
Yes, it took me until the 2000s to realize "de-nazification" was a lie, and to begin applying what I'd learned in college about how ancient history worked to more modern history (I, uh, am not proud it took me that long to apply what I'd learned).
And the fucked up part is that the continued racism towards the targets of the Holocaust makes sense, in that the culture & society that had enabled the Holocaust still existed. And they felt resentment for the crimes that had happened being exposed, alongside some repentance as well. Basically, "how dare you make us look bad by having been in the camps, and even worse, remind us of it by continuing to exist".
And then you think about all the anti-communist propaganda I grew up surrounded by in the 80s, and realized it was a useful fiction for NATO that all the "bad Nazis" had been removed. It feels, as an outsider, that all the reckoning that should have happened about the full scale of the Holocaust was just put into the Jewish part of the Holocaust. I'm glad you say it's changing, however. And I hope American education on it has improved, although I suspect it has a long way to go on the topic.
If I'm being honest the only thing I know about Portuguese politics is their super lax drug policy, so I had the impression they'd be more open minded in general