Manchin didn't cave on this because of pressure from Biden or other Democrats, he caved on this because his voters and groups like the United Mine Workers pressured him. Biden has fuckall leverage over Manchin. If Biden publicly denounced Manchin it would probably help Manchin's numbers given how unpopular Biden is in West Virginia.
The only groups with leverage over Manchin are his donors (ghouls) and his voters (mostly union workers). Manchin caved on this because his voters told him to sponsor this or fuck off, not because of pressure from other Democratic electeds.
I still can't get over the constant aoc struggle sessions a month ago. a bunch of leftists ganging up on one another over a vote that would inevitable fail and drawing the line between who is a real leftist and who is a pseudo-leftist based on that useless issue.
yea it turns out labor unions are the only way in which we can persuade lawmakers to our side in the fight between labor and capital. and there are still dummies out there who still care about the whole force the vote thing.
FTV was always radlib nonsense pushed by three podcasters who realized you can make a quick buck punching left. People who think AOC and the Squad can uproot global capitalism because the Democrats only have a 4 seat majority are the left equivalent of conservatives who think Mike Pence could have overturned the election because he was president of the Senate. Just a complete misunderstanding of what power is and how it works.
When anti-FTV people were saying "organize, don't fight the people already on your side", they meant doing shit like what DSA/Sunrise/unions are doing pressuring Manchin/Angus King/other shitbird Democrats who are the ones actually blocking progress.
The whole damn point was they could have used that opportunity to demand a variety of things including measures to make labor organizing easier. It was an opportunity for the left to actually act as its own political force instead of piggybacking off reforms neoliberals within the party wanted to do anyway.
yea all that sounds nice. but the post is about the dsa flipping joe manchin on the pro act with the help of labor unions. so a policy can be passed with different tactics.
the shit that I can't get over is the searing anger of some(jimmy dore fans) against the 5 congresspeople in office who are somewhat left leaning and the constant screaming at people who were apathetic or against it.
debates over tactical decisions get heated quite often. but people who are members of leftist organizations or labor unions know not to personally attack others who are on their side over disagreements of tactical shit.
in my opinion all that drama was the result of the fact that most online leftists are not members of any leftist organizations. they just browse the web together. that's alienation.
Forcing the vote was literally a DSA a plan to begin with, like I can't with this anymore because the situation had DSA members themselves pointing out the org was not paying attention or even trying to implement its own agenda. It's like schrodinger's organizer or something where nobody on the left seems to care what you actually do. It's just a bullshit version of pulling rank on people. We're just going to pretend people like Brie aren't also DSA and that FTV wasn't being championed by a bunch of activist when by our own logic they would also deserve credit for the shit everyone is in here celebrating.
here's the thing you have to understand about my position on the issue: I dont care right now, and at the time I did not care at all. If you can make the PRO act or m4a happen, please make it happen, I dont care how.
the only thing I have a problem with is someone who is so strongheaded about a tactical decision that they're willing to create chaos and disunity.
I have no problem at all with BJG or any other youtuber who was acting sensibly at the time no matter what side they were on.
The people I have a problem with are the ones who create stupid controversies that lead to disunity.
And let me tell you why this matters to me and why it should matter to you: the downfall of the cpusa in the 50s and 60s wasn't exactly caused by cointelpro and the fbi. it was the fault lines that existed amongst them at the time that the fbi and cointelpro exploited. cpusa leaders at the time were so paranoid of trotskyists that they couldn't imagine a greater enemy. hence the fact that at their height, something like 20% of dues paying cpusa members were fbi informants.
this is why we should ask ourselves when agitators start creating controversy, is this person who is creating drama really worth having around?
Are you a member of the DSA or any other organization, comrade? what do you know about the context in which 'the dsa plan' was passed. critiqueing organizational processes without taking on organizational discipline is a form of liberalism.
You could have just stopped at the fact you don't care. Like honestly what is even the point of going on about any of this when you didn't even bother to know the details of what happened? What is the point of endlessly fishing around for ways to discredit people? Is it just so we don't have to acknowledge indifference and apathy aren't actually signifiers of being the big bad arch socialist? I really think on some level people really prefer the narrative that everything is sabotage, grifters and enemy infiltration. It is so much more flattering than saying you didn't try because you didn't care.
So let me explain this one more time(I'm really not trying to create conflict here, I just wanna make sure you understand what I mean.) If we can pass m4a or the pro act, it would be good. I do care about that. What I don't care about is how we do it. So I did not at the time care about the ftv debate. But what I did care for was the fact we were so willing to tear each other apart.
And I damn well know what happened at the time. My contempt for the controversy in no way means I dont know what happened. I was following along the whole thing, and was frustrated (and still am) at the fact that we're so willing to tear each other apart over such inane bullshit as tactical decisions.
I'm also not saying that Dore is sabotaging or infiltrating. I dont believe that. I'm saying he's a leftist in the most shallow sense. As in we dont need him, or anyone who who creates that much controversy. It would be better if we stop empowering folks like him.
but lemme ask you this; do you care how m4a or the pro act is passed? if not, then why do you still care about this? also, do you think the vote would have passed the lower house? If you answer yes to this, idk what to say other than you're wrong. If you answer no, then why do you still care?
The biggest recent example was VP Harris going before WV local news stations and very loudly questioning why he didnt support the $1400=2000 checks as part of the stimulus program. That flipped him pretty quickly.
That said, I dont really know how much leverage the Biden admin could meter out with the PRO act wrt Manchin's base, as the Union leadership would have to be the ones directing most of the questioning.
Manchin didn't cave on this because of pressure from Biden or other Democrats, he caved on this because his voters and groups like the United Mine Workers pressured him. Biden has fuckall leverage over Manchin. If Biden publicly denounced Manchin it would probably help Manchin's numbers given how unpopular Biden is in West Virginia.
The only groups with leverage over Manchin are his donors (ghouls) and his voters (mostly union workers). Manchin caved on this because his voters told him to sponsor this or fuck off, not because of pressure from other Democratic electeds.
I still can't get over the constant aoc struggle sessions a month ago. a bunch of leftists ganging up on one another over a vote that would inevitable fail and drawing the line between who is a real leftist and who is a pseudo-leftist based on that useless issue.
yea it turns out labor unions are the only way in which we can persuade lawmakers to our side in the fight between labor and capital. and there are still dummies out there who still care about the whole force the vote thing.
FTV was always radlib nonsense pushed by three podcasters who realized you can make a quick buck punching left. People who think AOC and the Squad can uproot global capitalism because the Democrats only have a 4 seat majority are the left equivalent of conservatives who think Mike Pence could have overturned the election because he was president of the Senate. Just a complete misunderstanding of what power is and how it works.
When anti-FTV people were saying "organize, don't fight the people already on your side", they meant doing shit like what DSA/Sunrise/unions are doing pressuring Manchin/Angus King/other shitbird Democrats who are the ones actually blocking progress.
The whole damn point was they could have used that opportunity to demand a variety of things including measures to make labor organizing easier. It was an opportunity for the left to actually act as its own political force instead of piggybacking off reforms neoliberals within the party wanted to do anyway.
yea all that sounds nice. but the post is about the dsa flipping joe manchin on the pro act with the help of labor unions. so a policy can be passed with different tactics.
the shit that I can't get over is the searing anger of some(jimmy dore fans) against the 5 congresspeople in office who are somewhat left leaning and the constant screaming at people who were apathetic or against it.
debates over tactical decisions get heated quite often. but people who are members of leftist organizations or labor unions know not to personally attack others who are on their side over disagreements of tactical shit.
in my opinion all that drama was the result of the fact that most online leftists are not members of any leftist organizations. they just browse the web together. that's alienation.
Forcing the vote was literally a DSA a plan to begin with, like I can't with this anymore because the situation had DSA members themselves pointing out the org was not paying attention or even trying to implement its own agenda. It's like schrodinger's organizer or something where nobody on the left seems to care what you actually do. It's just a bullshit version of pulling rank on people. We're just going to pretend people like Brie aren't also DSA and that FTV wasn't being championed by a bunch of activist when by our own logic they would also deserve credit for the shit everyone is in here celebrating.
here's the thing you have to understand about my position on the issue: I dont care right now, and at the time I did not care at all. If you can make the PRO act or m4a happen, please make it happen, I dont care how.
the only thing I have a problem with is someone who is so strongheaded about a tactical decision that they're willing to create chaos and disunity.
I have no problem at all with BJG or any other youtuber who was acting sensibly at the time no matter what side they were on.
The people I have a problem with are the ones who create stupid controversies that lead to disunity.
And let me tell you why this matters to me and why it should matter to you: the downfall of the cpusa in the 50s and 60s wasn't exactly caused by cointelpro and the fbi. it was the fault lines that existed amongst them at the time that the fbi and cointelpro exploited. cpusa leaders at the time were so paranoid of trotskyists that they couldn't imagine a greater enemy. hence the fact that at their height, something like 20% of dues paying cpusa members were fbi informants.
this is why we should ask ourselves when agitators start creating controversy, is this person who is creating drama really worth having around?
Are you a member of the DSA or any other organization, comrade? what do you know about the context in which 'the dsa plan' was passed. critiqueing organizational processes without taking on organizational discipline is a form of liberalism.
You could have just stopped at the fact you don't care. Like honestly what is even the point of going on about any of this when you didn't even bother to know the details of what happened? What is the point of endlessly fishing around for ways to discredit people? Is it just so we don't have to acknowledge indifference and apathy aren't actually signifiers of being the big bad arch socialist? I really think on some level people really prefer the narrative that everything is sabotage, grifters and enemy infiltration. It is so much more flattering than saying you didn't try because you didn't care.
So let me explain this one more time(I'm really not trying to create conflict here, I just wanna make sure you understand what I mean.) If we can pass m4a or the pro act, it would be good. I do care about that. What I don't care about is how we do it. So I did not at the time care about the ftv debate. But what I did care for was the fact we were so willing to tear each other apart.
And I damn well know what happened at the time. My contempt for the controversy in no way means I dont know what happened. I was following along the whole thing, and was frustrated (and still am) at the fact that we're so willing to tear each other apart over such inane bullshit as tactical decisions.
I'm also not saying that Dore is sabotaging or infiltrating. I dont believe that. I'm saying he's a leftist in the most shallow sense. As in we dont need him, or anyone who who creates that much controversy. It would be better if we stop empowering folks like him.
but lemme ask you this; do you care how m4a or the pro act is passed? if not, then why do you still care about this? also, do you think the vote would have passed the lower house? If you answer yes to this, idk what to say other than you're wrong. If you answer no, then why do you still care?
stop listening to jimmy dore. he's a lib.
That’s literally what I’m saying.
Biden defenders say Manchin couldn’t be pressured. That was objectively false.
Oh okay I interpreted it as you saying Biden could pressure Manchin. Yeah Manchin can be pressured without a doubt, just not by Democrat politicians.
I’m saying Dems could easily use his base to pressure him. They have done it before for other things. They just won’t.
How? Like the other user said, if Biden denounced Manchin, that'd probably help Manchin.
The biggest recent example was VP Harris going before WV local news stations and very loudly questioning why he didnt support the $1400=2000 checks as part of the stimulus program. That flipped him pretty quickly.
That said, I dont really know how much leverage the Biden admin could meter out with the PRO act wrt Manchin's base, as the Union leadership would have to be the ones directing most of the questioning.
How did Manchin get in if his voters are pro labor?
Social conservativism/ being settlers
They're pro-labor by America in 2021 standards. Like fighting right-to-work and opposing bad trade deals and stuff.
Some union members vote Republican
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