I'll ask again, why do you think it's productive to hate this old man for not being based on everything?
Probably because I care a lot about my trans comrades and anyone who isn't their ally isn't mine either. It's a shame you don't, apparently. Intersectionality isn't that complicated and yet you are just rabidly defending a transphobe because he apparently has some good ideas on a topic that you care about more than trans rights
You are the only one coming off as rabid here. It's entirely possible to have a good faith conversation about this. Your interlocutor appears to be attempting that, and you're coming off as entirely hostile from the offset and unwilling to engage with the responses.
Yeah sorry that I'm not being civil about defending my right to exist and the rights of many of my comrades and loved ones to exist. That's pretty low of me isn't it.
Oh wait, no, that's wrong. I'm not sorry at all. I'll never apologize for defending the rights of my loved ones to exist. Ever.
For real, "you're coming off as entirely hostile from the offset and unwilling to engage with the responses", about whether or not you should be soft on this guy who thinks you should not exist. Calling you rabid about it. Not a very good look for them.
yeah this is not a useful attitude for leftists, friend. I care a lot about my trans comrades and I'm trying to stay polite when being accused of not. i hate transphobia and most transphobes, and most of all our society that materializes that social hatred against trans people. but please, for the love of god, try to be a better materialist about this. norm finklestein has had a meaningful material impact on people in favor of not supporting the genocide of palestinians. surely it's possible to understand the good he's done, the bad he's done, and the overall complexity of the person in question. are you trying to have a good faith discussion, or just attempting to make personal attacks? i want to make very clear, this man is not my hero, and i don't have personal heroes. i just reject the idea that you should discount literally everyone if they aren't a fully intersectional force for good. i recognize the vast amount of good he's done advocating for palestinians and the relatively small amount of damage he's done to trans people.
Just to be really really clear though:
Asserting that I care more about Palestinians than trans people is 1) a disgusting equivocation of two mostly unrelated movements for liberation and 2) almost a cruelly unserious thing to throw out there while over 10,000 Palestinians, half children, have been ethnically cleansed in the last month. We are literally only having this discussion because Norm is in the news advocating for a ceasefire and rights for Palestinians.
To put it in your style:
Palestinian freedom isn't that complicated and yet you're rabidly attacking a Palestinian advocate because apparently he had some bad ideas on a topic you care more about than the ongoing active bombing of a population center that is more dense than fucking Tokyo
I don't think that's reasonable, but it seems like that's how you're comfortable having a conversation with your comrades
Yeah uh, you aren't my friend, or my comrade. You're defending a transphobe and I don't have any friends or comrades that would ever do that. I'm disengaging with you, go shout your transphobic screed into some other void but don't shit up my feed with it anymore.
yes, i'm being condescending to a person that is more interested in policing the good from the bad than looking at the good and bad things that are done.
you clearly don't see yourself as infamousbit's comrade, or them as yours, you shouldn't use the word so fucking lightly
well i'm clearly not cut out to be their comrade. seriously, this is an online shitposting and discussion board, none of this is praxis, none of us are actual comrades to each other except for the support and thoughts we can give via words, and the occasional mutualaid post. are you seriously suggesting we should sacralize the word "comrade?" this isn't a fucking religion, a comrade is a person that does stuff with you to support liberation from capital. that's a silly perspective to have about the use of a word. in mandarin, comrade is just the generic name for a lgbtq person. is that using it too lightly for your taste? what makes it ok to say we're comrades?
are you seriously suggesting we should sacralize the word "comrade?"
i am saying i vehemently dislike the way you shroud yourself in words and constantly and consistently take the least charitable interpretation of your opponent. i am saying i dislike the way you write a paragraph of ideas and assumptions you have about the person you are arguing with. i am saying i distrust you, especially when you use the word comrade like your opponent is intended to be hurt by your grace.
this isn't my opponent, i am being sincere except for the line that was obviously sarcastic. i would generally think of people on here as being comrades, but choosing to get combative about norm finklestein of all fucking people is beyond the pale after you've watched a genocide unfold for a month straight. i'm not attempting to be uncharitable, i am making a case that their attitude is generally unhelpful for a leftist political project.
i am saying i vehemently dislike the way you shroud yourself in words and constantly and consistently take the least charitable interpretation of your opponent. i am saying i dislike the way you write a paragraph of ideas and assumptions you have about the person you are arguing with. i am saying i distrust you, especially when you use the word comrade like your opponent is intended to be hurt by your grace.
i am saying i dislike the way you write a paragraph of ideas and assumptions you have about the person you are arguing with
i am describing the person's rhetoric as i see it, sincerely. do you think that subtext doesn't exist or something? i am trying to be sincere and clear, and thus writing paragraphs. infamousbit has been rude and condescending and short. I answer their questions, they don't answer mine. I answer your questions, you don't answer mine. I think people here are generally comrades. I don't think infamousbit should talk to me like that so I inverted their take back to them. I really fail to understand why you think that's worse somehow than them having nothing to offer but attacks on my person.
if i had better self control, or didn't think you were probably well-intentioned in general, i'd have told both of you all to fuck off ages ago
i am saying i vehemently dislike the way you shroud yourself in words and constantly and consistently take the least charitable interpretation of your opponent. i am saying i dislike the way you write a paragraph of ideas and assumptions you have about the person you are arguing with. i am saying i distrust you, especially when you use the word comrade like your opponent is intended to be hurt by your grace.
Probably because I care a lot about my trans comrades and anyone who isn't their ally isn't mine either. It's a shame you don't, apparently. Intersectionality isn't that complicated and yet you are just rabidly defending a transphobe because he apparently has some good ideas on a topic that you care about more than trans rights
You are the only one coming off as rabid here. It's entirely possible to have a good faith conversation about this. Your interlocutor appears to be attempting that, and you're coming off as entirely hostile from the offset and unwilling to engage with the responses.
Yeah sorry that I'm not being civil about defending my right to exist and the rights of many of my comrades and loved ones to exist. That's pretty low of me isn't it.
Oh wait, no, that's wrong. I'm not sorry at all. I'll never apologize for defending the rights of my loved ones to exist. Ever.
For real, "you're coming off as entirely hostile from the offset and unwilling to engage with the responses", about whether or not you should be soft on this guy who thinks you should not exist. Calling you rabid about it. Not a very good look for them.
yeah this is not a useful attitude for leftists, friend. I care a lot about my trans comrades and I'm trying to stay polite when being accused of not. i hate transphobia and most transphobes, and most of all our society that materializes that social hatred against trans people. but please, for the love of god, try to be a better materialist about this. norm finklestein has had a meaningful material impact on people in favor of not supporting the genocide of palestinians. surely it's possible to understand the good he's done, the bad he's done, and the overall complexity of the person in question. are you trying to have a good faith discussion, or just attempting to make personal attacks? i want to make very clear, this man is not my hero, and i don't have personal heroes. i just reject the idea that you should discount literally everyone if they aren't a fully intersectional force for good. i recognize the vast amount of good he's done advocating for palestinians and the relatively small amount of damage he's done to trans people.
Just to be really really clear though:
Asserting that I care more about Palestinians than trans people is 1) a disgusting equivocation of two mostly unrelated movements for liberation and 2) almost a cruelly unserious thing to throw out there while over 10,000 Palestinians, half children, have been ethnically cleansed in the last month. We are literally only having this discussion because Norm is in the news advocating for a ceasefire and rights for Palestinians.
To put it in your style:
Palestinian freedom isn't that complicated and yet you're rabidly attacking a Palestinian advocate because apparently he had some bad ideas on a topic you care more about than the ongoing active bombing of a population center that is more dense than fucking Tokyo
I don't think that's reasonable, but it seems like that's how you're comfortable having a conversation with your comrades
Yeah uh, you aren't my friend, or my comrade. You're defending a transphobe and I don't have any friends or comrades that would ever do that. I'm disengaging with you, go shout your transphobic screed into some other void but don't shit up my feed with it anymore.
this is dripping with condescension. you are not being as steady-handed with this as you think
you clearly don't see yourself as infamousbit's comrade, or them as yours, you shouldn't use the word so fucking lightly
yes, i'm being condescending to a person that is more interested in policing the good from the bad than looking at the good and bad things that are done.
well i'm clearly not cut out to be their comrade. seriously, this is an online shitposting and discussion board, none of this is praxis, none of us are actual comrades to each other except for the support and thoughts we can give via words, and the occasional mutualaid post. are you seriously suggesting we should sacralize the word "comrade?" this isn't a fucking religion, a comrade is a person that does stuff with you to support liberation from capital. that's a silly perspective to have about the use of a word. in mandarin, comrade is just the generic name for a lgbtq person. is that using it too lightly for your taste? what makes it ok to say we're comrades?
i am saying i vehemently dislike the way you shroud yourself in words and constantly and consistently take the least charitable interpretation of your opponent. i am saying i dislike the way you write a paragraph of ideas and assumptions you have about the person you are arguing with. i am saying i distrust you, especially when you use the word comrade like your opponent is intended to be hurt by your grace.
this isn't my opponent, i am being sincere except for the line that was obviously sarcastic. i would generally think of people on here as being comrades, but choosing to get combative about norm finklestein of all fucking people is beyond the pale after you've watched a genocide unfold for a month straight. i'm not attempting to be uncharitable, i am making a case that their attitude is generally unhelpful for a leftist political project.
i am describing the person's rhetoric as i see it, sincerely. do you think that subtext doesn't exist or something? i am trying to be sincere and clear, and thus writing paragraphs. infamousbit has been rude and condescending and short. I answer their questions, they don't answer mine. I answer your questions, you don't answer mine. I think people here are generally comrades. I don't think infamousbit should talk to me like that so I inverted their take back to them. I really fail to understand why you think that's worse somehow than them having nothing to offer but attacks on my person.
if i had better self control, or didn't think you were probably well-intentioned in general, i'd have told both of you all to fuck off ages ago
this is all you are gonna get. stop talking to me
Removed by mod
"How dare you fucking call me 'comrade' when...
... checks notes...
... I have that listed as my preferred pronoun in my profile?"
I read this whole thread with that thought tumbling around in the back of my brain. Absolutely wild.