Similar to how they have a three paragraph response ready for how the guy who outlawed a strike is pro union.
"But he got them what theybwere asking for within 3 months"
He stopped a strike, full stop.
Even if he did get their requests 2 months later (spoiler, he absolutely fucking didnt) that's two months and multiple biohazardous train derailment later when he could have done literally nothing and they would have gotten it immediatly.
But libs are going with the time proven electoral strategy of telling anybody with a valid complaint they're wrong and don't know how politics works.
I've been a staunch lesser evilist for a long time and even argued for it here, but Genocide support is my red line. If Biden changes tune and forces a ceasefire (I was going to say support, but of course biden could actually FORCE one signle handedly) then I might change my tune.
Granted, I didnt vote for him in 2020 either but that was because I dont live in a swing state. Its only because of this red line that I now am against voting for him regardless of where you live.
Like, I still have trouble not seeing FPTP voting in america as a trolley problem, and I havent intelectually wrapped my head around it yet, but I know Biden crossed a line for me and thats that.
I don't want to come across as an accelerationist, but I am almost certain Democrats would have endorsed a ceasefire if Trump was president. He has a way of sharpening the contradictions so even the most false consciousness pilled lib can see the correct choice.
You're right but not necessarily because Trump heightens the contradictions. I think it's just simple partisan politics. Supporting Israel is obligatory if you want to play ball with the American ruling class, either President would be supporting the genocide. But when you're the opposition you have a lot to gain from taking the objectively correct position of condemning genocide, not a lot to lose (maybe some AIPAC funding but that might not outweigh the cost of staying silent).
Maybe that's partisanship, but I don't think any other Republican president would have the effectiveness at getting Democrats to make the right choice. Trump's ability to piss off libs is unmatched and that humiliation and indignation definitely helps them see the contradictions.
It's definitely true that he pisses them off unlike anything else in the world, but the liberal media also had the 'world is ending every day' vibe when W was in office, I remember. At least when they weren't tripping over themselves to wave the flag harder than the right.
When there's a republ8can president liberals at least provide lip service to doing progressive things.
The only difference between a Democrat and republican president is when there's a Democrat president liberals tell vulnerable people to shut up and stop complaining because they're making them look bad.
Like how the concentration camps on the border and dejoy at the usps stopped being an issue overnight.
I paid more attention to politics once trump was elected. I learned more about what trump could and couldn't do as president and how the damage could be prevented. I went to political protests and got active.
Watching the Democratic party describe him as evil while doing little to stop him really woke me up to the willful inaction going on. It finally clicked when I saw people waiting on the Mueller Report. A fed and self-identified republican who would supposedly unseat a president and send them to jail.
I feel like there's a word for it that I don't know, but I think had that happened, Liberals would be forced to look themselves in the mirror and decide between their hatred for Trump and their love for Israel. I feel like it would have been a huge injury to the liberal psyche
Tbf I dont think their point is that itll be bad for America in general, but specifically for marginalized people. I dont agree that thats worth casting your principles asside, particularly when the principle is "genocide is bad", but I wanted to clarify anyway.
During Trump liberals were posting black lives matter filters over their profile picture under Biden those same liberals are telling those same activists to shut up and stop complaining because they're hurting bidens chance of re-election.
This argument makes more sense if you can point to concrete things Democrats are doing or have done at the federal level to protect those people, but there isn't anything. Voting for people who will provide lip service but no actual effort isn't really helping people.
Things haven't changed though. They still have concentration camps for refugees at the border, they're building the wall, policing gets full throated support, Roe v Wade is dead, states haven't even had an ounce of punishment for their terrible anti-trans and anti-abortion laws, war continues, tensions continue to build with China.
Is project 2025 scary, yes. But Biden hasn't done shit to actually help trans people. Some messaging of support doesn't stop the trans kids from getting brutalized by a state senate. Someone here mentioned it a while ago but the real difference between Trump and Biden is Trump is driving at the cliff with the pedal to the metal, Biden is driving the speed limit towards the same cliff. I'm absolutely sick and tired of people basically threatening minority groups saying "you better vote for us or look what that guy'll do to ya"
Yeah, they might repeal Roe v Wade or cancel student loan forgiveness or cancel all COVID relief or pass anti trans laws in multiple states or put kids in cages. Can you imagine???
Sounds like presidential election doesn't actually matter that much then so you should all stop moaning about it nonstop, and get to work on finding the actual leverage into power (it's labor power and mass work stoppages)
democrats had four separate chances to codify Roe, going back to jimmy "east timor" carter. campaign obama promised to do it and then president obama turned around and said it wasn't a priority. RBG could've resigned when obama had a senate majority, but she had such hubris and ego that she wanted to be replaced by hilary clinton. Biden didn't even try to pack the court.
democrats ain't shit and you're a giant mark if you think they'll actually help or protect you from what's coming
Yeah I'd expect numbers that go up every presidency to continue going up every presidency
That's not a complete accounting of the impact of a presidency. It's a pretty wild take to argue trump is equally as bad. My understanding is in areas like tax policy, infrastructure investment, and labor movement Biden is better. Even in cabinet members appointed, Bidens ghouls are slightly less ghoulish.
Again, I don't like Biden. But it's a meme to say it's equal to a trump presidency
What kind of bizzare expectation is that? Trump's and Obama's numbers on deportations and police funding are analogous with Trump's police funding being slightly higher, Biden's numbers on both are a goddamn rocket and his weaponization of covid laws like title 42 to cover his deportation numbers is beyond disgusting
And Biden let the child tax credit expire and his infrastructure investment is a shell game for corporate handouts, actual construction in low income areas is not taking place, and to
pretend the man who forbade the rail unions from striking is a friend of labor is ludicrous on its face
Dems are in power right now and what has that worthless, cowardly party done to protect Roe v Wade? Trans rights? Stopping mass incarceration? Ending the US Mexico border concentration camps? Socializing health care? Stopping fracking? Defunding the police? Defunding the military industrial complex?
Leaning on minorities to vote for a party that is incapable of wielding power against their enemies and oppressors is so intellectually dishonest that it makes me sick. Minorities in America will never get justice from a party of imperialist colonizers whose only selling point is they're not as abhorrent as the other fascists.
Why should they? The Democrats are neoliberals, they are not your friend. They are not going to do anything for you.
The American two-party system is designed in such a way that as long as the Republicans are overtly evil, the Democrats get a free pass to do whatever they want so long as they do not cross that threshold.
It’s designed to punish voters who think they can opt out of the electoral system by not voting. Don’t want to vote? You get the worse choice of the two!
And what the people are advocating here (not voting Biden) is exactly the behavior that the system is designed to punish. It’s meant to demoralize and break your will until you are no longer capable of resisting. It’s designed for you to lose.
The only way out of this is to have a political movement that does not play by the rules of the electoral system. But since such a movement does not exist in America, the least you can do right now is to slow the erosion of minority rights.
It’s the choice between evil and a worse evil. Or rather, Build Back Fascism Better or Make Fascism Great Again. And you will have made your choice between the two even when you don’t vote.
The American two-party system is designed in such a way that as long as the Republicans are overtly evil, the Democrats get a free pass to do whatever they want so long as they do not cross that threshold.
The least you can do right now is not assume the person you're replying to even gets to vote for the President, because America decided that those of us who live in their territories are second class citizens whose votes shouldn't count. An issue that neither party even pretends to care about. And, as people were saying elsewhere in the thread, you don't get to have it both ways. Not voting IS distinct from making a choice. Voting for the dems despite their support for genocide just sends them a message of approval, that minorities are their little pet dogs who will stick by their side no matter what.
I'm trans. They've been very vocal about coming for me as soon as they get the chance.
That's inevitable though! As long as the Republican Party is allowed to exist and recruit more fascists this isn't going to change. Eventually they'll win and try to put me in a camp. Better that happens under a polarizing dumbass like Trump than a smart fascist.
And let's not forget ticket splitting. What is going to happen if Trump wins the Whitehouse and loses the Senate and House? Chaos.
What is going to happen if Trump wins the Whitehouse and loses the Senate and House? Chaos.
And I think this is whats going to happen based on the results in the last two elections. Dems are doing well broadly, but Biden is personally unpopular. So I think he loses the presidency, but the Dems win congressionally.
Its interesting that @Kaplya@hexbear.net couches their guilt about being an active genocide supporter in retoric about "protecting minorities". But when those same minorities explain exactly how that doesn't actually protect them they give no response.
Trump winning (because progressives refuse to vote)
Gotta love how liberals portray progressives as simultaneously a large enough voting bloc to sway entire elections, but not large enough to ever enact a single progressive policy even when it's a campaign promise.
Trumps not gonna win because progressives refuse to vote he's going tow in because Biden is trying to win as a Democrat while pissing off anybody that cares about unions or not committing genocides and luterally explicitly told young people he does not care about the problems they face.
If you vote for Genocide Joe you endorse genocide, no amount of cope will change that
Yup.
Similar to how they have a three paragraph response ready for how the guy who outlawed a strike is pro union.
"But he got them what theybwere asking for within 3 months"
He stopped a strike, full stop.
Even if he did get their requests 2 months later (spoiler, he absolutely fucking didnt) that's two months and multiple biohazardous train derailment later when he could have done literally nothing and they would have gotten it immediatly.
But libs are going with the time proven electoral strategy of telling anybody with a valid complaint they're wrong and don't know how politics works.
I've been a staunch lesser evilist for a long time and even argued for it here, but Genocide support is my red line. If Biden changes tune and forces a ceasefire (I was going to say support, but of course biden could actually FORCE one signle handedly) then I might change my tune.
Granted, I didnt vote for him in 2020 either but that was because I dont live in a swing state. Its only because of this red line that I now am against voting for him regardless of where you live.
Like, I still have trouble not seeing FPTP voting in america as a trolley problem, and I havent intelectually wrapped my head around it yet, but I know Biden crossed a line for me and thats that.
I don't want to come across as an accelerationist, but I am almost certain Democrats would have endorsed a ceasefire if Trump was president. He has a way of sharpening the contradictions so even the most false consciousness pilled lib can see the correct choice.
I don't think you're necessarily wrong actually. Dems opposed moving the embassy to Jerusalem when Trump was president IIRC.
You're right but not necessarily because Trump heightens the contradictions. I think it's just simple partisan politics. Supporting Israel is obligatory if you want to play ball with the American ruling class, either President would be supporting the genocide. But when you're the opposition you have a lot to gain from taking the objectively correct position of condemning genocide, not a lot to lose (maybe some AIPAC funding but that might not outweigh the cost of staying silent).
Maybe that's partisanship, but I don't think any other Republican president would have the effectiveness at getting Democrats to make the right choice. Trump's ability to piss off libs is unmatched and that humiliation and indignation definitely helps them see the contradictions.
It's definitely true that he pisses them off unlike anything else in the world, but the liberal media also had the 'world is ending every day' vibe when W was in office, I remember. At least when they weren't tripping over themselves to wave the flag harder than the right.
I've been saying this for a while.
When there's a republ8can president liberals at least provide lip service to doing progressive things.
The only difference between a Democrat and republican president is when there's a Democrat president liberals tell vulnerable people to shut up and stop complaining because they're making them look bad.
Like how the concentration camps on the border and dejoy at the usps stopped being an issue overnight.
I paid more attention to politics once trump was elected. I learned more about what trump could and couldn't do as president and how the damage could be prevented. I went to political protests and got active.
Watching the Democratic party describe him as evil while doing little to stop him really woke me up to the willful inaction going on. It finally clicked when I saw people waiting on the Mueller Report. A fed and self-identified republican who would supposedly unseat a president and send them to jail.
I think you're completely correct
I still think Biden was the accelerationist choice, and i think its turned out to be true
I feel like there's a word for it that I don't know, but I think had that happened, Liberals would be forced to look themselves in the mirror and decide between their hatred for Trump and their love for Israel. I feel like it would have been a huge injury to the liberal psyche
Okay, but what if you vote in a state where the electoral college says you voted for the other guy?
Does that say least absolve you?
Trump winning (because progressives refuse to vote) isn’t going to stop the genocide. It will however make the situation 100 times worse at home.
Trump being bad for America is not the argument you think it is in these parts lol
Tbf I dont think their point is that itll be bad for America in general, but specifically for marginalized people. I dont agree that thats worth casting your principles asside, particularly when the principle is "genocide is bad", but I wanted to clarify anyway.
During Trump liberals were posting black lives matter filters over their profile picture under Biden those same liberals are telling those same activists to shut up and stop complaining because they're hurting bidens chance of re-election.
Tell that to the minorities in America who have a lot to fear for if the Republicans come to power again.
This argument makes more sense if you can point to concrete things Democrats are doing or have done at the federal level to protect those people, but there isn't anything. Voting for people who will provide lip service but no actual effort isn't really helping people.
Things haven't changed though. They still have concentration camps for refugees at the border, they're building the wall, policing gets full throated support, Roe v Wade is dead, states haven't even had an ounce of punishment for their terrible anti-trans and anti-abortion laws, war continues, tensions continue to build with China.
Is project 2025 scary, yes. But Biden hasn't done shit to actually help trans people. Some messaging of support doesn't stop the trans kids from getting brutalized by a state senate. Someone here mentioned it a while ago but the real difference between Trump and Biden is Trump is driving at the cliff with the pedal to the metal, Biden is driving the speed limit towards the same cliff. I'm absolutely sick and tired of people basically threatening minority groups saying "you better vote for us or look what that guy'll do to ya"
Yeah, they might repeal Roe v Wade or cancel student loan forgiveness or cancel all COVID relief or pass anti trans laws in multiple states or put kids in cages. Can you imagine???
I know you know republicans did the repealing of Roe v Wade and state level restrictions of abortion rights.
I know you know Democrats have done absolutely nothing about it
Sounds like presidential election doesn't actually matter that much then so you should all stop moaning about it nonstop, and get to work on finding the actual leverage into power (it's labor power and mass work stoppages)
Okay, so trump is scary because he could use executive powers to ruin things right? What about Biden not using executive powers to protect things?
He had years to put out protections and take steps to mitigate the damage of the Supreme Court.
The fact that he didn't use the powers at his disposal to protect Roe v Wade, as one of the most powerful people in the world, is damning.
Biden not trying to protect Roe v Wade as the sitting US president is tantamount to endorsing the overturn of Roe v Wade.
democrats had four separate chances to codify Roe, going back to jimmy "east timor" carter. campaign obama promised to do it and then president obama turned around and said it wasn't a priority. RBG could've resigned when obama had a senate majority, but she had such hubris and ego that she wanted to be replaced by hilary clinton. Biden didn't even try to pack the court.
democrats ain't shit and you're a giant mark if you think they'll actually help or protect you from what's coming
I don't expect shit from democrats but it's actual factual that marginalized communities have a better time under democrat rule than republican
Biden has Trump beat on deportations and has funded police departments all over the country to record levels, to say nothing of the democratic weaponization of RICO laws against black protesters
Yeah I'd expect numbers that go up every presidency to continue going up every presidency
That's not a complete accounting of the impact of a presidency. It's a pretty wild take to argue trump is equally as bad. My understanding is in areas like tax policy, infrastructure investment, and labor movement Biden is better. Even in cabinet members appointed, Bidens ghouls are slightly less ghoulish.
Again, I don't like Biden. But it's a meme to say it's equal to a trump presidency
What kind of bizzare expectation is that? Trump's and Obama's numbers on deportations and police funding are analogous with Trump's police funding being slightly higher, Biden's numbers on both are a goddamn rocket and his weaponization of covid laws like title 42 to cover his deportation numbers is beyond disgusting
And Biden let the child tax credit expire and his infrastructure investment is a shell game for corporate handouts, actual construction in low income areas is not taking place, and to pretend the man who forbade the rail unions from striking is a friend of labor is ludicrous on its face
The meme is pretending Trump was worse
Dems are in power right now and what has that worthless, cowardly party done to protect Roe v Wade? Trans rights? Stopping mass incarceration? Ending the US Mexico border concentration camps? Socializing health care? Stopping fracking? Defunding the police? Defunding the military industrial complex?
Leaning on minorities to vote for a party that is incapable of wielding power against their enemies and oppressors is so intellectually dishonest that it makes me sick. Minorities in America will never get justice from a party of imperialist colonizers whose only selling point is they're not as abhorrent as the other fascists.
Why should they? The Democrats are neoliberals, they are not your friend. They are not going to do anything for you.
The American two-party system is designed in such a way that as long as the Republicans are overtly evil, the Democrats get a free pass to do whatever they want so long as they do not cross that threshold.
It’s designed to punish voters who think they can opt out of the electoral system by not voting. Don’t want to vote? You get the worse choice of the two!
And what the people are advocating here (not voting Biden) is exactly the behavior that the system is designed to punish. It’s meant to demoralize and break your will until you are no longer capable of resisting. It’s designed for you to lose.
The only way out of this is to have a political movement that does not play by the rules of the electoral system. But since such a movement does not exist in America, the least you can do right now is to slow the erosion of minority rights.
It’s the choice between evil and a worse evil. Or rather, Build Back Fascism Better or Make Fascism Great Again. And you will have made your choice between the two even when you don’t vote.
Supporting genocide is overtly evil.
The least you can do right now is not assume the person you're replying to even gets to vote for the President, because America decided that those of us who live in their territories are second class citizens whose votes shouldn't count. An issue that neither party even pretends to care about. And, as people were saying elsewhere in the thread, you don't get to have it both ways. Not voting IS distinct from making a choice. Voting for the dems despite their support for genocide just sends them a message of approval, that minorities are their little pet dogs who will stick by their side no matter what.
You forgot the depriving people with felony convictions from voting even after their release.
If you vote for someone who is an active helper and participant of an ongoing genocide you become an accomplice
I'm trans. They've been very vocal about coming for me as soon as they get the chance.
That's inevitable though! As long as the Republican Party is allowed to exist and recruit more fascists this isn't going to change. Eventually they'll win and try to put me in a camp. Better that happens under a polarizing dumbass like Trump than a smart fascist.
And let's not forget ticket splitting. What is going to happen if Trump wins the Whitehouse and loses the Senate and House? Chaos.
And I think this is whats going to happen based on the results in the last two elections. Dems are doing well broadly, but Biden is personally unpopular. So I think he loses the presidency, but the Dems win congressionally.
Its interesting that @Kaplya@hexbear.net couches their guilt about being an active genocide supporter in retoric about "protecting minorities". But when those same minorities explain exactly how that doesn't actually protect them they give no response.
Democrats are equally as terrible and I won't hear your retort otherwise because it will be libshit
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Biden has Trump beat on deportations and police funding
I mean, trans genocide is happening right now at the state level under Biden and he and the national-level party haven't done shit about it
Gotta love how liberals portray progressives as simultaneously a large enough voting bloc to sway entire elections, but not large enough to ever enact a single progressive policy even when it's a campaign promise.
The Enemy is Strong and Weak, they say? Where have I heard that before
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It sounds like Biden and the Democratic party are the ones who should be working harder to court votes. You know, they're the ones in power right now.
Trumps not gonna win because progressives refuse to vote he's going tow in because Biden is trying to win as a Democrat while pissing off anybody that cares about unions or not committing genocides and luterally explicitly told young people he does not care about the problems they face.
It may stop the arming of fascists in Ukraine however, and end that senseless NATO proxy way