you keep saying 'women' in this comment when referring to cis women, which is the main issue here - it's not like trans women are winning and then secretly going 'yes, another victory for men', but rather it's cis women who are not seeing trans women as part of the same team. So what if some trans women get socialised in such a way that they have an advantage in pool? The only reason this is an issue is if you fundamentally see a victory for trans women as a loss for cis women. The fact this is being shown as oppositional (and being played as such) is the major issue here - if a cis woman had gone through the same experiences, and had the same advantages, would she also be considered an unfair competitor?
if we're going down that path, shouldn't we separate anybody who has had a parent who played pool from people with parents who didn't play? And then shouldn't we separate those based on who owned a pool table at home from those who didn't? At what point are we drawing the line, if 'might have had a Dad who pressured them into sports' is an acceptable metric? Not to mention that basing your opinion on 'tropes' is how this discussion was started - people who's only experience is seeing 'Men In Dresses' tropes on TV and then developing their opinions on trans people's right to equal participation in society from that.
That is exactly my thoughts on the matter. There are many potential advantages some women will have over other women. Same with any other catagory of competitors, unless we just put everyone into an open category. But I don't think that's going to help the woman in the post.
you're in the neighborhood of the inescapable ableism of having any kind of competition at all. there's been some academic discourse about it but i forget who or what specific sub-field.
I'm sorry you feel I'm being reductive, but that's honestly how this is coming off. I'm not denying socialogical differences, and of course different lives lead to different outcomes - I am cautioning against painting every AMAB person with that brush as a way of excluding all of them from participation. Again, I'm asking you to be careful cos this is getting close to saying there are just unsolvable differences that can never be overcome, but ONLY when it comes to trans people.
We have data. The Olympics have been open to trans athletes for decades and trans women have simply not dominated. They've done disproportionately badly, actually. A trans swimmer won one (1) non-Olympic race last year and it caused a major media shitstorm, and that should be proof enough that it's a rare occurrence.
Also just be careful with the "socialization" shit. And be careful assuming our experiences. Like re: the other part of this thread, I faced significant sexual harassment as an egg throughout high school. Because people might not have known my specific deal and god knows I didn't, but people could tell something was going on with me. This is a common experience for eggs. There is no one "male socialization" for a number of reasons, but even within that wide range I really don't feel I got it.
This is coming up with a conclusion and then searching for post hoc evidence. It's assuming we MUST have an advantage but just changing your idea of why based on your audience. And it's sounding the alarm the moment a trans athlete wins, as if it'll only be ok for us to compete if we never do well.
As to your experience, I'm sorry to hear that you experienced sexual harassment and that I erased it. Queer men do face disproportionately high levels of sexual harassment, but I still think it's of a different nature than what straight/bi/lesbian cis women receive from straight men.
you keep saying 'women' in this comment when referring to cis women, which is the main issue here - it's not like trans women are winning and then secretly going 'yes, another victory for men', but rather it's cis women who are not seeing trans women as part of the same team. So what if some trans women get socialised in such a way that they have an advantage in pool? The only reason this is an issue is if you fundamentally see a victory for trans women as a loss for cis women. The fact this is being shown as oppositional (and being played as such) is the major issue here - if a cis woman had gone through the same experiences, and had the same advantages, would she also be considered an unfair competitor?
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if we're going down that path, shouldn't we separate anybody who has had a parent who played pool from people with parents who didn't play? And then shouldn't we separate those based on who owned a pool table at home from those who didn't? At what point are we drawing the line, if 'might have had a Dad who pressured them into sports' is an acceptable metric? Not to mention that basing your opinion on 'tropes' is how this discussion was started - people who's only experience is seeing 'Men In Dresses' tropes on TV and then developing their opinions on trans people's right to equal participation in society from that.
That is exactly my thoughts on the matter. There are many potential advantages some women will have over other women. Same with any other catagory of competitors, unless we just put everyone into an open category. But I don't think that's going to help the woman in the post.
you're in the neighborhood of the inescapable ableism of having any kind of competition at all. there's been some academic discourse about it but i forget who or what specific sub-field.
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I'm sorry you feel I'm being reductive, but that's honestly how this is coming off. I'm not denying socialogical differences, and of course different lives lead to different outcomes - I am cautioning against painting every AMAB person with that brush as a way of excluding all of them from participation. Again, I'm asking you to be careful cos this is getting close to saying there are just unsolvable differences that can never be overcome, but ONLY when it comes to trans people.
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We have data. The Olympics have been open to trans athletes for decades and trans women have simply not dominated. They've done disproportionately badly, actually. A trans swimmer won one (1) non-Olympic race last year and it caused a major media shitstorm, and that should be proof enough that it's a rare occurrence.
Also just be careful with the "socialization" shit. And be careful assuming our experiences. Like re: the other part of this thread, I faced significant sexual harassment as an egg throughout high school. Because people might not have known my specific deal and god knows I didn't, but people could tell something was going on with me. This is a common experience for eggs. There is no one "male socialization" for a number of reasons, but even within that wide range I really don't feel I got it.
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This is coming up with a conclusion and then searching for post hoc evidence. It's assuming we MUST have an advantage but just changing your idea of why based on your audience. And it's sounding the alarm the moment a trans athlete wins, as if it'll only be ok for us to compete if we never do well.
Holy shit fuck OFF
yeah you should honestly cut your fingers off instead of posting shit like this ever again