I'm trying to have a discussion with some friends, many of which are Zionist.
Can anyone help me out in sketching out a good reply to these points? I think you can tell by their language that they aren't a total lost cause, but I would like to push them on the right side. It's just very difficult when you're Jewish like me and grow up in an extremely Jewish area where Zionism is a default programming for young Jews:
Hey, so, like, can we separate this into three distinct conversations. I think it will help clarify...
Arab-Israeli citizens of Israel are full citizens. They vote. They have political parties. They have civil trials, etc... Their status in Israel is akin to Black Americans. Israeli Supreme Court + Constitution guarantees them full rights. In practice they face systemic racism/discrimination like Black Americans. This eviction situation is like if orthodox Jews in brooklyn moved to evict poor Black residents who have lived in a building for 50 years.
Gaza is a self-governing territory within Israel domain. It is somewhat like Guam (not a perfect analogy). People of Gaza have limited self-determination in terms of things like zoning, school systems, economic laws, utilities etc... They have their own court system. Their own police force. The two main issues with Gaza are that (1) they do not control their own borders, and (2) they do not have enough utilities to support themselves so they rely on Israel for electricity + water. Relying on Israel for this isn't at Israel's choice. They could develop more/better or could import from Egypt. I wish more supporters of Gaza would just raise money to build a better power plant!
The West Bank is basically what you think of as apartheid. This is sort've like Indian Reserves in the US pre 1924 act that admitted Native Americans as citizens. West Bank residents are tried in military courts and do not have voting rights. They do control their own police force, education system, and other limited systems, but they are really at the mercy of Israeli government policies.
There are millions of Palestinians unable to vote in the West Bank . Additionally, even if the characterization of Palestine to Brooklyn was accurate I would fully support them in their struggle to keep their homes
Gaza being a self-governing territory within Israel domain isn't true. Israel is violating international law by occupying recognized Palestinian territory. They can't maintain infrastructure because it is routinely destroyed by the IDF. 95% of their drinking water has been contaminated or poisoned because of the IDF and since Israel periodically destroys waste treatment systems. Blaming the Palestinians for their horrible conditions is ridiculous
The west bank is an example of colonialism and imperialism. Comparing them to conditions in the US doesn't make it any less atrocious
This is sort’ve like Indian Reserves in the US pre 1924 act that admitted Native Americans as citizens.
This isn't supposed to be a full answer... but the West Bank cannot be compared to Indian Reserves. Because the Israeli government has no interest in just letting the Palestinians control the West Bank in a form of semi-autonomy. If that actually was the case we would be much closer to peace there. The critical issue here is that the Israeli government wants the west bank. They do not want Palestinians living in the west bank, they want it all for themselves.
But the "problem", they can't just go in and murder all the Palestinians living there and move in themselves, as much as they may want to. Even that would be beyond the pale and I would imagine lead to all-out war. So instead the Israeli government is playing the "long game". They evict Palestinians here and there and settle Israeli families. Every year, the Palestinians are forced to cede ever more land in the west bank. The goal is to eventually strange them to death.
Your friend isn't arguing in favor of what Israel is actually doing, but is instead arguing in favor of a white-washed unreality that doesn't exist.
additional thought:
Gaza is the largest ghetto in the world, and any Jewish person should support their liberation
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can palestinians apply for citizenship and be granted it?
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Israel stopped medication shipments in Gaza and reduced water supply, if I remember correctly, as a punishment
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Israel government unequivocally supports settlements, and honestly parallels and dynamics here with 1933 are disturbing
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This is really messy, hopefully someone can do better
I thought that attempts by Gaza to build utility stations have been regularly blocked by Israel for (supposedly) zoning/regulatory reasons. I could probably find a source to clarify. The framing of those "two main issues" is awful. The main problem is that rich white people stole the land and keep Gaza poor, not that Gazans just don't happen to have money. Israel blocks things from entering, like construction materials to rebuild. Israel also controls the amount of food let in to Gaza, and calculates the minimum amount for the population. This is a form of population control and probably eugenics. But this person seems to admit to some of that, allowing that the Gaza strip is apartheid, that Arab-Israelis are basically Jim Crow black southerners. Sheikh Jarrah is not a typical gentrification situation where rich people pay more than poor people, it is stealing the land of indigenous peoples. The existence of Israel and the right of return means that Israel's existence is illegal under international law. Human Rights Watch (a centrist human rights group) says Israel should be investigated for crimes against humanity. Not sure how much of that this person admits to. Bozzy's answer is better; this person really believes that Gaza has the ability to do self-determination and it does not at all.
Arab-Israeli citizens of Israel are full citizens... Their status in Israel is akin to Black Americans... This eviction situation is like if orthodox Jews in brooklyn moved to evict poor Black residents who have lived in a building for 50 years.
A reply to this might be that it's closer to evicting some Navajo with American citizenship from some place where they have a historical claim. On top of all the prejudice they experience in the American legal system (which is bad enough already), they can also say that the United States stole their land to begin with. That second part doesn't change no matter what the facts of the immediate eviction case are, and it wouldn't change even if all the prejudice in the system was magically eliminated.
