AI have no rights. Your AI creations are right-less. They belong in the public domain. If not, they are properties of the peoples whose art you stole to make the AI.
AI have no rights. Your AI creations are right-less. They belong in the public domain. If not, they are properties of the peoples whose art you stole to make the AI.
I have almost complete aphantasia and dysgraphia. I can describe a picture but I could never draw it even on a computer. Despite the technology to overcome my Neuro divergency being at my fingertips I shouldn't own my creations because you don't like the tools I used?
Ableist Classist Luddite. "Art is only for the few who can dedicate years of study to perfect their technique and fuck any technology that makes art more accessible. oh and digitally made music isn't music."
Wait just one sec comrade. Noone said you can't use it, but you really think you should be entitled to make money as an artist? You can literally get a job as an AI prompt writer/engineer. But what you want is to be recognized as an artist.
Fine, then create a bunch of AI art, frame it, and take it to a gallery or to a market. Put it in a portfolio and display it on a website. Go network with other artists in your area and promote your work as art, see where it gets you. I'm genuinely curious.
AI has the ability to write code, but very few software engineers have lost their jobs because of it. Why? Is it because AI code, like AI art, sucks ass?
A lot of people here struggle with MH and some have overcome and found success. Maybe don't be so quick to label others as chauvinistic for pointing out that your idea is a priori nonsense that has little to no basis in reality. The fact remains that your struggles don't prevent you from picking up a paintbrush or a pencil or a mouse or whatever. Quadrapalegics still paint landscapes, Chuck Close is a world famous portrait artist who is face blind.
AI art is trained on the art of others, full stop. Noone says you can't use it to create images for your own enjoyment. Maybe there is some value for creators in using AI? But the value is created for capitalists to suppress wages of creatives and force people into unemployment. Hollywood writers went on strike over this shit. People don't fucking like it and regardless of how you feel about that, art is subjective. So best of luck, get over yourself
I mean, why else are we complaining about artists losing jobs? This seems blatantly true to me, people should be able to be artists if they enjoy making things.
If you can honestly go out into the world and market yourself as an artist, do the work of an artist, as in design, manufacture, sell art, while using images produced with stable diffusion that you had no hand in developing, and you're transparent about it to your clients, go for it. More power to you. You're making art from stolen art in a society where the only way for artists to make money is selling their original designs. Artists work their butts off for not a lot of money, but I'm no moral warrior, people steal all the time, make money from stolen shit, etc. Make the money you can while you can. But that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to judge you. If you're making stuff for your own consumption, even better since it doesn't complicate things. Go ahead and call yourself an artist too, I don't care. But if you do all that and people get mad about it it doesn't make them "Classist Ableists" that was a cheap bullshit thing to say. If you're really gonna be an artist you're gonna have to take some harsh critique, especially if you're using a medium that everybody hates.
You're probably right, I shouldn't have gone off like that, why do I care about someone else's opinions? You're right, there's enough gray area, and the history of art is the history of people who were told that what they were making wasn't art calling themselves artists. It just seemed really out of line to insist its okay and accuse others of chauvinism for disagreeing. Maybe OP was just making stuff for their own consumption and enjoyment and we lost the plot. But instead of explaining that they defended the worst parts of ai art as virtuous.
There is no value in suffering or "hard work." All production under capitalism is tainted by exploitation and theft.
All your issues are problems with capitalism not with AI.
My "Ableist Classist Luddite" was directed at a user who was providing no arguments and being a :smuglord
So I decided they were acting in bad faith and responded in turn.
means tested art production
I wish I could just have not responded to any of this. Kissinger died and it made me want to social media. Big waste of time and energy, as usual
dont worry i tagged alaskaball to clean this mess up, annoying ass debate perverts have no place here
Upholding the petty bourgeois artist's gatekeeping, requiring "real" artists to go the right school, know the right people, drink the right wine, attend the right parties and hate the right things. Classist ✔
Calling neurodivergence a mental health issue, "pick yourself up by the boot straps, Everyone can overcome their limitations because a few people did." Ableist ✔
Blaming tools for the crimes of capitalism. Ludditry ✔
Come on, all three of these are a massive stretch. This is exactly what im talking about, youre just belligerent. Believe what you want, die on whatever hills you want. Enjoy life, shoot your shot playa. Life is all about playing around with stuff, if playing with AI makes you happy or a little money, or not, that's the road you're on. I hope its a cool ride
Edit: its irritating AF that you quoted me and then right below that said things I didn't even say in order to check your boxes. Self crit
aphantasia doesn't mean you can't draw, it means you can't visualize in your head
you can have great visualization skills but still suck at drawing
You have a logical error there.
"there are people who's legs work that can't run for shit. that means that being paralysed from the waist down doesn't make you a bad runner"
Uh, aphantasia has precisely nothing to do with artistic ability. I only know a couple off the top of my head, but Ed Catmull founded Pixar and contributed greatly to computer graphics, and Glen Keane was an animator at Disney for decades, worked on all the big films. Both are aphantasic.
He Co founded Pixar and made programs to make videos. If he were born in the 80s he'd have founded an AI company.
Way to ignore a significant part of my neurodiversity and make some "pull yourself up by the boot straps" ablist bull shit about a few "great men" who overcame the barriers to entry and achieved things. "I didn't blame anyone for the loss of my legs, some [redacted] in Korea took them from me but I went out and achieved anyway. I can't solve your problems, sir, only you can"
uhhh you're making the error
good visualization is (probably) necessary for good drawing
good legs are necessary for running
but your legs can be perfectly fine and you can still suck at running. In fact people who are much older and even disabled (with the use of prosthetics) can outrun you despite you having good legs
similarly, having great visualization skills doesn't make you good at drawing. Arguably they are necessary to draw well, but they are not sufficient
This is what you said:
Aphantasia is not sucking at drawing, it's sucking at visualizing. Which arguably will probably also make you suck at drawing, but the converse (being bad at drawing means you're bad at visualizing) is not true at all
Also, like, visualization is helpful for drawing but it's not necessary because, among g other things, an intellectual understanding of how to draw figures (etc.) goes a long way, and so does just sketching things out so you can have a visual reference in place of the one your mind might produce if you could visualize
yea, also drawing from visualization feels like it has a coordination aspect that some people are bad at
I'm good at visualizing, but to draw while visualizing is like doing two things at once for me, it's similar to playing the piano (which I'm kinda bad at)
drawing just doesn't feel like it relies THAT much on visualization ability, which is why I tempered the (probably) in my original comment
If you cant visualize them "understanding how to draw figures" is called making stick people. Knowing that people have libs and joints doesn't go very far.
"just sketching things out " doesn't work when you don't have muscle memory in your hands. Dysgraphia means that every finger movement must be coordinated from scratch. I literally cannot write my name the same way twice if I have 50 tries.
This is blatant misinformation. Inability to visualize does not mean inability to understand geometry. A huge amount of figure drawing is just understanding the geometric relations between different parts, or at least using geometry to draw the scaffolding for making a coherent anatomy. Being able to visualize things does not at all correspond to putting it on a page, as literally anyone who can visualize things will readily tell you.
Which is thicker, a torso or an arm? Which is longer? When you stand straight, are your hamstrings and quadriceps oriented on the left and right of your legs, or the back and front? Is you calf thicker at the top or bottom? If you put your palms down on the ground in front of you, do your thumbs point towards or away from each other? In degrees, about how far can you turn your head?
Someone who can visualize but has not internalized the answers to these questions already would need to look at themselves, maybe even try out the pose, to answer (and look up the muscle groups). That's just the same as you, and once they have the answer, it is still just words, something that you can contain in your head just as clearly as them. They can use those words to produce images in their heads when they want to, but that circles around to sketching. If you know the answer to questions like this -- and internalizing those answers, those mere "words," is a significant element of study for beginning art students -- you can draw figures that are significantly more accurate than stick figures. It'll look like garbage at first -- in part because you won't know which questions to ask -- but that's what it means to be a beginner in any field, drawing included.
The sketch I mentioned is a reference sketch so you have an image in front of you that conveys the spatial relationships (i.e. the composition) you are going for. It's not a matter of making an identical drawing twice, because if all you wanted to draw was something identical to the sketch, you could just use the sketch.
There is certainly the matter of certain elements of technique being much harder with that condition, but it really has no bearing on the validity of sketching unless you are in desperate need to make the finished product as quickly as possible (because it does make everything slower, certainly). Even then, you should probably still sketch because you won't get to the end faster by fucking it up.
I'm sure you would tell me that your handwriting is terrible and irregular and I'm genuinely sorry you need to deal with that, but it's not just as bad as when you were six years old, right? And why is that when you lack muscle memory? I'm sure you can tell me quite a lot, but I am confident in saying that a major factor must have been getting a better understanding of the characters you are trying to write and what it is like to write them. There are things automatic fine motor skills would elide that the typical person relies on and you can't, but there is still surely a great deal you have learned (and a great deal you hypothetically could still learn) to improve your handwriting, even if it would remain irregular and you would write more slowly and with greater strain and so on.
something about... trusting marginalized peoples experiences? I am neurodivergent. It has been a significant barrier for me especially in areas of self expression and most notably visual art. You are telling me my life experience is dog shit and I should just ask NT people.
You have no concept of my situation and refuse to take me at my word. I hate brining up my neurodiversity because it is so poorly understood. You are proving to me that while this site is great for being inclusive for trans people there are significant black holes where ND people are concerned. I don't like to view myself as a marginalized person because I am a white cis male who speaks English but you are really making me feel marginalized. Thanks for that.
https://juliekitzes.com/painting-with-a-blind-minds-eye
https://theconversation.com/the-art-of-aphantasia-how-mind-blind-artists-create-without-being-able-to-visualise-162566
I do trust their testimony, and when the testimony conflicts, matters like what more of them say and what actually makes sense become a factor again. I've read several testimonies from artists on this subject and I welcome you to produce a more concrete contradiction, but not being able to visualize does not actually mean that it's impossible to draw more than a stick figure.
You might like this one
A black man was president so racism is obviously over right?
That is a nonsense comparison on several levels and I think you know that. Either something is possible or it isn't, and if it is possible in some cases but not in others, there needs to be one or more variables that cause that to be the case. Your analysis, as presented, was clearly incomplete because countless people with aphantasia provide contrary testimony.
That's why I suggested that you might be misunderstanding what it's like for people who are -- as far as this topic is concerned -- NT. Art is hard and it requires an immense amount of knowledge and practice, and many (for this purpose) NT people live their lives bitterly thinking "I wish that I could put on the page what I see in my head, but I lack the talent to do so". Generally speaking, they are wrong, they just haven't put in the work like the artists have -- including the much greater work disabled artists have -- but it goes some way to demonstrate that even for the able it is a long and difficult and discouraging process to make things that you can imagine other people finding presentable, though you may never even if you are quite good. You spoke a few comments ago as though mental images are themselves a superpower that elide the need to actually learn how to draw when it's genuinely nothing more than an ability to generate mental rough sketches at will that are significantly less stable and consistent (and therefore less useful) than an actual sketch.
Your stick figure claim is false, that is all.
fwiw I agree with you but just not on the idea that aphantasia itself necessitates being bad at drawing
I think it could hurt with drawing (for some people), for others it might actually help them gain the motivation to draw (if you can picture any scenario in your head you can easily end up having much less motivation to put that on a page, trust me).
There are probably other mental traits that are way more important to drawing than aphantasia though
the dysgraphia i don't know much about, but drawing figures is definitely a totally different hand movement from writing your name. I have great handwriting but I suck at drawing. Though dysgraphia probably does affect drawing too, and there are definitely multiple types of it which whose essences can't really be captured or described properly
you also could have a ton of other traits that simply aren't categorized properly under these limited names, so I believe you
Thanks for saying that.
Dysgraphia is the basically the bane of my existence. In my case it is caused by a lack of muscle memory in my hands. So any hand movement has to be specifically coordinated from scratch. So when I write a letter "A" my brain has to say to my hand "up and down and cross." Where most people write entire sentences like they are walking down the road for me its like walking across a field of sharp stones barefoot. Every single step must be carefully planned.
Aphantasia is a barrier to creating visual art. Your assertion is that because people without that same barrier aren't naturally successful that it isn't a barrier.
Okay, it probably is a barrier, circumstantially, depending on the individual
but your claim was "I can describe a picture but I could never draw it"
I took this to mean that you can actually also visualize that picture, which is the reason you could "describe" it. I don't know if that's what you meant, I guess not, and I interpreted it wrong, but the definition of aphantasia is about visualization
You shouldnt be able to make money and steal from artists who made the AI art possible in the first place though, youre taking for granted that the art is free in the first place and more of these people online should be paid
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the art of actual artist which is being stolen and used to make pastiches by tech companies with billions of VC bucks behind them. Like are you intentionally failing to see the point here?
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It is absolutely being stolen when the art of people is being taken by VC funded tech companies and repurposed for commercial use without any compensation nor permission. Are you doing a bit right now?
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I think it's bizarre to see "Socialists" siding with techbros and VC companies against artists and workers. The economic relationship is why it's theft. The creation of art is for many artists how they sell their labor, how they make money, how they get food on the table, generative AI does not currently exist in any capacity except large tech companies who are commercializing this art without the permission of these artists often explicitly against their wishes and reaping the full rewards of that. It is an exploitation of their work.
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The luddites were right you realize of course? My issue is with capitalism yes, and the expansion of copyright to an industrialized art theft ring run by tech companies to the detriment of artists. Something you are cheerleading based on... what, contrarianism? A desire to be fucking wrong?
No they weren't. Luddites were fighting to keep the unwashed masses from weaseling in on their jobs. This is middle class reactionary stupidity. Read some fucking theory. Value is a product of labor. Lower labor costs lowers the value of products.
The automation of equipment makes jobs for less skilled people and raises the living standards of everyone. Lower cost of production makes goods cheaper as all.
Its true the increased profits make the rich richer buy they do it at the expense of the skilled labor and artisan middle class. The middle class uphold the capitalist status quo. If their standard of living falls they are more likely to see and act on the contradictions of capitalism than if they stay in the comfort of the middle class.
The reason that communism will win is that Capitalists will inevitably destroy the middle class making them working class which will radicalize them.
My art is work, i should be paid for it. Its weird socialists are laying cover for corporations and the robbing humanity out of another human experience. Youre not entitled to a perfect drawing of Hank Hill smoking weed, you do the best of your ability and thats fine.
The article in question is about an individual stealing art made by another individual using AI.
There were no corporations involved. This isn't AI company vs Artist. This is AI artist vs website that posted AI art they didn't make.
Piracy is not the same as IP fraud, which is what the OP amounts to
not an artist, but from what I've heard they're also scared of missing out on cheap revenue because of of increased competition for commissions of repetitive/generic art. Lots of artists use them to support themselves doing other types of art they care more about.
Plus when you're starting out, all your work is low quality and now there's a much bigger supply of low quality art it's more difficult for beginner artists to make money for their work.
The root issue is that money and copyrights should both not exist
but yes in the meantime whatever helps the artists the most should be done, but of course it won't because why would it
nobody stole anything. they got a copy of the data of an image. That data is publicly available and anyone looking at that image on their computer has a copy of that data.
I'm not against artists being paid. I'm saying that AI is nothing without an operator and that means AI art is made by artist who should be afforded all rights of any other artist.
Youre again taking for granted that a lot of the art is free, when it shouldnt be. The people who make that art should be making a living doing something that takes so much work and study to be able to do.
That is a capitalism problem not an AI problem.
Okay but until we lose capitalism it doesnt matter does it
I might be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you aren't drawing a line between being able to view, save, and edit data on your computer for whatever personal reasons vs. turning that data around to make a profit.
the data that a LIM is pushing out is not substantiative based on any one image. If an individual cuts up 1000 magazines to make a colage and resells it did they infringe on the copyrights of a photographer who took one of the pictures? They took that person's data and turned it around to make a profit.
The problem is the stealing of labor. Not by you, mind, but by the people who put together these AI codebases. Artists did not put up images expecting them to be able to automatically used to obsolete their job, they expected people to directly copy or save them, which would maintain their IE signatures and stuff. This is why artists really dislike tracing, because taking someone else's creative expression and passing it off as your own is a (subjectively) kind of scummy thing to do that's much worse than piracy or IP theft (not because it's particularly bad, but because those things are like literally not bad at all).
The issue is fundamentally that AI models are exploiting someone's labor to be created. It's just the same kind of labor exploitation we always do but scaled up a bit.
Even in the most generous terms, Marxism isn't a promise that you will have every desire fulfilled. So I don't really know why you said that.
AI isn't a promise to make anything more accessible. Its a cash grab by giant corporations...accumulating the data of all art, text, sound, pictures into massively expensive computation frameworks for their own purpose. The Corporations are creating frameworks whose inputs they control and output is essentially copy and paste. Like saying classism on your inability to have SKILLZ when there are actual problems with AI being incredibly racist and controlled by misogynists like Larry Summers is like ughhh....just so self centered and myopic.
In the system we have where art is commodified there are barriers to entry. Class determines access to training and tools used to make orriginal images of value as does physical and mental ability. Using technology to overcome those barriers is a good thing. Being against tech that provides the marginalized with access to things because it will "take artist's jobs" is Ludditist and classist because it is upholding the petty bourgeois artists and keeping out the unwashed masses of the neurodivergent, untrained and physically disabled.
In the legal case referenced the person who gained the copyright and won the case was an individual. It was not the AI developer. If any thing it is a case to use that a person using AI is the copyright owner and not a corporation who develops the tool.
The issues you raise are valid but they are issues with capitalism and not with the tech. AI is a tool and capitalists have always tried to use tools to further exploit people. that doesn't mean we should abandon all tools.
I'm not responding to unlicensed bad takes.
good because I'm not responding to people who don't back up their disagreement with discussion. Go back to reddit you can offer the same level of discourse with a single click over there.
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homophobia and "no you" isn't the great argument you think it is.
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Says the person who isn't explaining their position and is hurling abuse like a monkey flings shit. I'll say it again. Go back to reddit where this sort of behaviour is acceptable.
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You mean own as in have? sure. own as in being able to sell them? maybe. Own as in courts will fine everybody else using same picture? Nah
you shouldn't be entitled to copyright on it
why? Because I made it on a computer? or because the code that the computer used was very complex? or because during some of the code uses data that is freely available on the internet?
because you didn't write the code for the algorithm, you didn't make any of the training data pictures, and you didn't do anything that could be considered 'creative' or 'talented' to make it. Real fucking artists that put hours of time, effort, and creativity into their work deserve to have it protective. By plugging in "looking at a sunset from a mountain" or some shit into stable diffusion doesn't make you entitled to the shit it puts out. terrible take.
Rubbish. You're just assuming the user put in little effort. It's perfectly possible to put in little effort using pen and paper too. The end result looks less like a final piece, but it's probably equally close to what the artist tried to express. No one who uses downloaded brushes in Photoshop write the code for importing and drawing with those brushes. Nobody who uses photo textures wrote the code for their cameras. Nobody who uses Blender wrote the code for the light transport that happens when you hit render.
Drawing a style guide, drawing the composition with a sketch, and paint overs are all completely normal parts of the process when using Stable Diffusion, and none of that is where the creativity comes in.
you're right, that was a bad argument
the problem is that the AI trains off of the data of unwilling artists without credit.
Did you invent the paint brush?
Working hard does not have any intrinsic moral value. That is puritanist
. There is no value in suffering.
you are right. i'm sorry. but the issue still stands that the programs that create the art use other artist's work for their own profit with no credit. these people are having their work just, stolen from them.
They are having their art used in a way they didn't expect. That is a problem in capitalism not a problem of tech.
agreed, but that doesn't make it any more ethical to partake in it.
Is it any less ethical than producing art when your art supplies are tainted by exploitation? When you are living on land stolen through genocide? when your way of life is built on the subjugation of the global south?
The fact is there is effort and creative input involved in making AI art no matter how miniscule that effort is. This ruling protects that effort and creative input from being used for profit by anyone who pleases. It isn't protecting AI tech. its protecting producers form exploitation and that is all.
i should also clarify that i am not defending IP, the opposite in fact. i am saying that someone who makes an AI image isn't entitled to IP on that image.
Because it is a composite of the art other people made
So is colage. Using other art in art is very common. Every song that samples another song isn't art?
A majority of the data that LIM train off is not even "art" they are images. They lack the context and emotive qualities that differentiate art from information.
If the collage is literally just using the constituent elements the same way they were originally used, yes, that is textbook plagiarism and I already explicitly made this comparison
Sampling would by convention be considered plagiarism, which is why "sampling culture" is a thing, because it exists within a different but also defined set of norms around what is or is not acceptable and this has its own ongoing controversies that I would suggest not flattening into "the hip-hop people say plagiarism isn't real", which is what your non-argument amounts to
But the AI isn't using the constituent elements in the same way they were originally used. they are being compared and merged with thousands of other versions of that element to make a new one.
The original use is "painting of a car", the new use is "painting of a car". It's using thousands of references in a composite, but the material is by definition not being used transformatively because that is the opposite of what the program is trying to accomplish with its data (i.e. matching visual patterns with descriptions)