The question is in bold at the end. It's better to eat your veggies first but...

———

Imagine it's January. Consider this imaginary list of Biden and the DC dems "accomplishments".

  • Abortion. Dem failure. They haven't really done anything on the federal level yet. By election day ~40% (or whatever the number is) of women won't have reproductive rights. It's possible that in June the GOP justices will ban abortion on a federal level.

  • The Supreme Court. Dem failure. They didn't pack the court. Instead they passed minor reforms that are total fucking bullshit. It's clear to anybody with a working brain that the GOP justices will be openly fucking us for decades. Stephen Breyer is 83. There are rumors he has had "medical treatment" but he refuses comment on such quotidian matters. Of course, when he dies - his replacement will be a GOP justice.

  • Protecting democracy. Dem failure. The For the People Act never got passed and never will get passed. By using a filibuster carve out - Biden and the dems passed a piddly version of the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. It's a joke. It's like putting up some sandbags instead of stopping a dam from failing and causing a catastrophic flood. By election day ~40% (or whatever the number is) of the electorate will face anti-democracy laws. The 2022 elections will be bad. 2024 will be a total horrorshow.

  • Protecting the climate. Dem failure. By using yet another fucking filibuster carve out - the dems passed a hollowed out version of the dem-only infrastructure bill. The proclaimed amount for climate is $550B. When grotesque pork like the gimmes to the energy sector are subtracted - the number falls to a bit over $500B. Another piddly number.

———

In this context - consider the following convo in r/politics

Leftist: "Why should I vote for the democrats in the elections?"

Lib: "That's so stupid that I won't even answer. Do you care about democracy? Do you care about anything? You have to vote democrat."

Leftist: The leftist lists those four bullet points (and more?) and says "To reiterate: Why should I vote for the democrats in the elections? All they do is fail. Use your words or - hell - use somebody else's words (give me a link to an article) that answers my question."

The liberal links to an article by some idiot "thinker" lib like Jonathan Chait. The article is for voters disheartened, disillusioned, and disgusted with the democrats and it has an "undeniable" list of reasons that we all gotta vote for the democrats. What sort of arguments does that article make?

  • andys_nuts [none/use name]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Noam Chomsky's argument for voting is the best one, and doesn't really have a good counterargument: you only have to do it once every couple of years; it takes little time (relative to other types of political organizing); and for all their failures, Democrats are demonstrably better on a lot of issues than Republicans.

    "Don't vote" is a useless, contrarian take. If you really think voting doesn't matter, then what's the purpose of starting struggle sessions over something that doesn't matter? It's just trying to show that you're smarter than other people -- it's not organizing, it doesn't convince anyone to move left, and it doesn't move us closer to any sort of material improvements. It's a pointless fight with someone you should want to listen to you. That gives them less of a reason to listen to you, not more.

    Instead of derailing conversations into a discussion of something you don't even think matters, say yes (regardless of what you actually think about voting) and then move to a more productive topic.

    • RedDawn [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      There is actually something to be gained by more people realizing that our electoral institutions are not democratic and not going to save us, it raises political consciousness. That said, Lenin advocated participating (via a workers party) in bourgeois parliamentary politics in order to demonstrate this to the masses, not abstaining.

      • andys_nuts [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        There is something to be gained by that, so we should simply make that argument in exactly the words you just did. Making a big deal about not voting doesn't accomplish that -- it derails the conversation into them attempting to shame you into voting. Say "yeah, I'm voting" -- you can lie! -- and then move on to talking about how little can be accomplished through our current electoral process.

    • LeninWalksTheWorld [any]
      ·
      3 years ago

      not voting could be cool if it was done in big enough numbers to challenge the actual legitimacy of the elections. you'd probably only need another 20% of Americans to stop voting to really suck the myth of democracy out of this system. Though of course you as individual not voting is useless, you are just considered apathetic or whatever even if you had reasons.

      I don't think people should vote democrat even if they are marginally better than Republicans. Voting Green or whatever third party you want I feel is a more effective way to express displeasure at the ballot box (more effective than voting blue every year at least). Leftists should be seeking to undermine the legitimacy of the American government and voting Dem is marginally counterproductive to that.

      that being said vote for whoever you want your one vote doesn't matter in the grand tide of history

      • andys_nuts [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        you are just considered apathetic or whatever even if you had reasons.

        This is exactly right, and no one listens to these people. You'll be viewed the same way if you vote Green or some other irrelevant third party. Whether you vote or don't vote won't undermine the legitimacy of the government, either, because (as you said) your one vote doesn't matter.

        If there's a decent candidate with some level of popular support, it makes sense to vote for them -- that would show some mass willingness to move in the right direction, which can be useful. If the candidates are shit, at least swallow your pride and say you're voting for the Democrat, because otherwise you're just wasting time and energy fighting a useless fight over whether one person should vote or not. It makes no sense to even get into that discussion when it'd be more productive to talk about almost anything else.

      • andys_nuts [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        They don't have to know about Chomsky to make the argument. It's not anything complicated or novel. More importantly, why would we ignore a good point just because libs might not think of it?

        • inshallah2 [none/use name]
          ·
          3 years ago

          They don’t have to know about Chomsky to make the argument

          To quote myself...

          THAT’S NOT HOW THEY THINK.

          C'mon, man. You're acting like an obnoxious chud. This is tedious.

          • andys_nuts [none/use name]
            ·
            3 years ago

            :data-laughing: the guy all-caps shouting at me on the internet is calling me obnoxious lmao

            • inshallah2 [none/use name]
              ·
              3 years ago

              Hey it worked! You read it!

              Chomsky is brilliant but he's also 92 years old. His mind is no longer agile. If what I said in the self text (which you might not have even read) comes to pass - voting won't even fucking matter. By election day the dems will have allowed dozens of Handmaid States to be created.

              The dems are going to do nothing about it. Instead, they're going to campaign and fundraise off of abortion rights.

              Abortion Arrives at the Center of the American Political Maelstrom - The New York Times

              Eyeing 2022, the Democrats' Senate campaign arm has signaled it will use abortion rights as a cudgel against Republicans running in states like Florida, New Hampshire, Nevada and North Carolina. Democrats planning campaigns for governor next year are preparing to brand themselves as the last line of defense on abortion rights, particularly in states with Republican-controlled legislatures.

              Australia has compulsory voting. They're becoming a police state anyway. Google Surveillance Legislation Amendment (Identify and Disrupt). The US is well on its way to becoming 100x worse. But sure - vote in 2022 if it give you hope in a hopeless situation and it makes you feel good. Just don't be delusional about it.