BODIES AND WOUNDED, HOWEVER, BEGAN TO
ARRIVE AT THE RED CROSS STATION INDICATING THE EXTENT
OF THE FIGHTING AND THE FACT THAT REAL BULLETS WERE
BEING USED. AS THE MILITARY BEGAN TO REACH THE
OUTSKIRTS OF THE SQUARE AND SHOTS WERE FIRED IN THE
VICINITY OF THE RED CROSS STATION, MRS. GALLO DECIDED
SHE WANTED TO LEAVE.
Where is 10000 or indiscriminate firing or tank rolling over? I don’t deny people died, nobody does, the scale is the question. There is very proud tradition to inflate victim numbers of regime’s enemies, so that your fucks up wouldn’t look too bad/make them look bad
Of course, any death is not cool and good. I just feel massacre of even 1000 people been that famous is obviously work of propaganda, each year massacres of this scale happen. Only in imperial core they don’t happen, cause they have fancy security apparatus to get them beforehand/nice crowd dispersal weapons
I softly deny scale, but a) i wasn’t there b) it’s not particularly interesting.
Tplf has massacred 200 people recently, do people talk about amhara massacre? Would they remember them? Us troops recently gunned down prolly 40 people after explosion in kabul, will you remember it 20 years from now?
I’m not even talking mass violence of the 60s, that happened this month. God knows what myanmar is doing, yemen still suffers, colombia completely blacked out in news, india is beating up farmers, I try to remember them instead of some small scale shit in china.
I didn't know that the TPLF was even a thing. And wow, that sounds really shitty. I wish people would just stop killing each other, instead of looking at everything as "relative".
Yeah, I also wish. I think there in lies a faultline for tankies, they see the terror of counter revolution and make napkin calculation what would be acceptable loss of life to prevent it. If there were no shadow outfits salivating over thoughts of balkanizing china, I would be much more critical as well but I feel ambivalent, what would have happened. Maybe they would sit down, maoist wing would beat up lib nerds, and they’ll get sweet concessions from revisionist government. Or maybe they would attract more and more people, until conflict becomes unviable, and China would have become russia 1.0, with some millions of death from exposure, alcoholism and heroin. Kinda hard trolley problem with so many questions, isn’t it?
Official CCP announcements shortly after the event put the number who died at around 300. At the State Council press conference on June 6, spokesman Yuan Mu said that "preliminary tallies" by the government showed that about 300 civilians and soldiers died, including 23 students from universities in Beijing, along with some people he described as "ruffians".[190][199] Yuan also said some 5,000 soldiers and police were wounded, along with 2,000 civilians. On June 19, Beijing Party Secretary Li Ximing reported to the Politburo that the government's confirmed death toll was 241, including 218 civilians (of which 36 were students), 10 PLA soldiers, and 13 People's Armed Police, along with 7,000 wounded.[152][200] Mayor Chen Xitong said on June 30 that the number of injured was around 6,000.[199]
So, at LEAST 300 people died. That's a shitload of people for one plaza. I would still classify that as a "massacre".
I'm a tankie and I agree with you. It was a massacre, and an excessive one at that. I disagree that it makes me "just as bad as the holocaust deniers" though. You have to understand the context here.
Hungary fell earlier that year, and there was massive unrest in Poland, East Germany, and many other countries across eastern Europe. 1989-1991 saw the complete collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc. There was a real threat to communism in China. By May of 1989, a student-led hunger strike galvanized support around the country for the demonstrators, and the protests spread to some 400 cities. This was not a single city protest. This was a huge movement that threatened to overthrow the government. This all led up to the incident at Tiananmen Square. Was it brutal? Sure. Was it as bad as the western media says? Probably not.
In the next decade, the eastern bloc would suffer massively, and China not as much. Today the former communist bloc states are still suffering, while China continues to improve living standards. If comrades like @emizeko could back me up with a couple charts of the fall of living standards in the former USSR and the rising living standards in China I would be much obliged.
Seems like there's a few people here are debating that there are dead people in the images. I think there are some dead people in these images. CW: Corpses. I partially agree with Guy Dudeman's Photoshop job here. I think the incident is a use of state power that definitely took out some innocent people. I also believe that it helped stop China from falling like the Soviet Union did. In any case, it's no worse than an average year for America. China is clearly the lesser evil here.
Is british cable inherently more trustworthy than a Chilean one?
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Where is 10000 or indiscriminate firing or tank rolling over? I don’t deny people died, nobody does, the scale is the question. There is very proud tradition to inflate victim numbers of regime’s enemies, so that your fucks up wouldn’t look too bad/make them look bad
I'm with you on that. I'm sure it wasn't 10k, but it was a lot of people, and it wasn't cool or good.
Of course, any death is not cool and good. I just feel massacre of even 1000 people been that famous is obviously work of propaganda, each year massacres of this scale happen. Only in imperial core they don’t happen, cause they have fancy security apparatus to get them beforehand/nice crowd dispersal weapons
I don't know. I feel like all the vehement denial surrounding this massacre makes me believe that it actually did happen.
I softly deny scale, but a) i wasn’t there b) it’s not particularly interesting.
Tplf has massacred 200 people recently, do people talk about amhara massacre? Would they remember them? Us troops recently gunned down prolly 40 people after explosion in kabul, will you remember it 20 years from now?
I’m not even talking mass violence of the 60s, that happened this month. God knows what myanmar is doing, yemen still suffers, colombia completely blacked out in news, india is beating up farmers, I try to remember them instead of some small scale shit in china.
I didn't know that the TPLF was even a thing. And wow, that sounds really shitty. I wish people would just stop killing each other, instead of looking at everything as "relative".
Yeah, I also wish. I think there in lies a faultline for tankies, they see the terror of counter revolution and make napkin calculation what would be acceptable loss of life to prevent it. If there were no shadow outfits salivating over thoughts of balkanizing china, I would be much more critical as well but I feel ambivalent, what would have happened. Maybe they would sit down, maoist wing would beat up lib nerds, and they’ll get sweet concessions from revisionist government. Or maybe they would attract more and more people, until conflict becomes unviable, and China would have become russia 1.0, with some millions of death from exposure, alcoholism and heroin. Kinda hard trolley problem with so many questions, isn’t it?
Yep. It sucks.
:meow-hug:
Thanks. I needed that, after the "'warm" welcome I received here.
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Denial from tankies. Here's Wikipedia's take:
So, at LEAST 300 people died. That's a shitload of people for one plaza. I would still classify that as a "massacre".
I'm a tankie and I agree with you. It was a massacre, and an excessive one at that. I disagree that it makes me "just as bad as the holocaust deniers" though. You have to understand the context here.
Hungary fell earlier that year, and there was massive unrest in Poland, East Germany, and many other countries across eastern Europe. 1989-1991 saw the complete collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc. There was a real threat to communism in China. By May of 1989, a student-led hunger strike galvanized support around the country for the demonstrators, and the protests spread to some 400 cities. This was not a single city protest. This was a huge movement that threatened to overthrow the government. This all led up to the incident at Tiananmen Square. Was it brutal? Sure. Was it as bad as the western media says? Probably not.
In the next decade, the eastern bloc would suffer massively, and China not as much. Today the former communist bloc states are still suffering, while China continues to improve living standards. If comrades like @emizeko could back me up with a couple charts of the fall of living standards in the former USSR and the rising living standards in China I would be much obliged.
Thanks for being reasonable and civil. You're the first reasonable tankie I've come across. Really appreciate it.
You'll find a lot more of that here. Welcome to left unity my friend.
Also, check out Michael Parenti. :party-parenti:
Parenti on so-called "poor" countries
Why are ML countries so authoritarian?
Legendary Yellow Parenti video (warning:long)
Thanks very much!
Final reminder to not use tankie as an insult. Next mod action will be a ban. Thanks.
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True
But its not all in one plaza, its for the events in the whole city.
Seems like there's a few people here are debating that there are dead people in the images. I think there are some dead people in these images. CW: Corpses. I partially agree with Guy Dudeman's Photoshop job here. I think the incident is a use of state power that definitely took out some innocent people. I also believe that it helped stop China from falling like the Soviet Union did. In any case, it's no worse than an average year for America. China is clearly the lesser evil here.