Fun fact: anyone who uses the word "tankie" as a pejorative has nothing of value to add to any conversation; you can just pay them no mind and continue on with your day.
Edited to add: I felt is was important to also note that this rule applies to the word "anarkiddie" because I love my anarcho-communist comrades.
Someone is only a tankie if they're from the Tankie region of Hungary, anything else is just a sparkling ML. Send tweet.
Funny that you link to images some bicycles instead of the photos of a disemboweled, burned and lynched PLA members hanging off of meat hooks with their genitals mutilated.
Broadly tho the tankiest people I've spoken too in the group seem happy to accept criticism on the regimes? It just has to be done without calling to American propaganda, that being said I've sort of intentionally avoided bringing it up.
Fucking lol. Hard to hold a conversation without using propoganda so I just don't try.
You tankies are unwilling to accept any criticism of ML regimes!
Actually, although I support them, I do have my reservations such as-
Oh yeah? Then why don’t you accept evidence from CIAcutout.org!?
I know, right? Like we haven't seen enough struggle sessions on here about ML governments or critical support for anti imperialist nations. It's almost as if these people don't like having to do the extra work of reading past the propoganda to find something to honestly be critical of.
It absolutely is. You know they made it that to appeal to aggro lookin white dudes
it's an appropriation of the old socdem antifascist-anticommunist org from weimar germany
its where the three arrows come from, one of the arrows is for communists :cringe:
and how'd that go?
On January 30th 1933, the day Hitler was declared chancellor, the communist KPD asked the Iron Front, the social democrat SPD, the general trade union association ADGB and their organisations, and Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold to declare a general strike against Hitler. The Iron Front declined and issued a call on February 2nd to "all comrades of the Reichsbanner and the Iron Front", warning against participating in "wild actions organised by irresponsible people", and exhorted members to "turn all Iron Front events into powerful rallies for freedom".
I can't verify if this tweet is legitimate or not
Every western piece on China has some variation of this sentence
These idiots actually believe the tanks literally ran over people at Tinyman Square, Uyghur China.
Well, SOMETHING killed all these people. What do you think it was ?
British ambassador to China Sir Alan Donald wrote a secret diplomatic cable around 24 hours after the massacre, which was only declassified in 2017. Some excerpts:
"The 27 Army APCs (armored personnel carriers) opened fire on the crowd before running over them. APCs ran over troops and civilians at 65kph (40 miles per hour). Students understood they were given one hour to leave square, but after five minutes APCs attacked.
Students linked arms but were mown down. APCs then ran over the bodies time and time again to make, quote ‘pie’ unquote, and remains collected by bulldozer. Remains incinerated and then hosed down drains.
27 Army ordered to spare no one. Wounded girl students begged for their lives but were bayoneted. A three-year-old girl was injured, but her mother was shot as she went to her aid, as were six others.
1,000 survivors were told they could escape but were then mown down by specially prepared MG (machine gun) positions. Army ambulances who attempted to give aid were shot up, as was a Sino-Japanese hospital ambulance.
Minimum estimate of civilian dead 10,000"
The first picture is mostly bikes and the few people lying on the ground are still clearly alive as you can see them lifting their heads to see whats going on. I can't spot any dead people in the second pic either. Also lol at believing a 'British ambassador'
Really, really predictable answer. "All I see are bikes!" Jesus.
Can you circle the dead bodies in red? Because there literally are none. There are a lot of bikes and a couple of alive people on the ground. What more do you want? Are my eyes just lying to me, so I need to trust Western media instead?
Edit: To be clear, yeah, something clearly happened that caused these people to panic. A couple dozen people dropped their bikes and fled. A couple other people were presumably knocked off their bikes in the confusion. But where is the killing?
It's not unreasonable for people to point out that the evidence you provided doesn't prove what you're claiming it does.
How can you be sooooo much in denial.
But ... you're the one claiming that abandoned bikes are dead bodies. How does that work?
Congratulations though, you finally linked a couple of pictures of what could potentially be dead bodies. Or they could be unconscious / injured in the panic which led everyone to drop their bikes and run away. It's pretty difficult to tell.
Or they could be unconscious / injured in the panic which led everyone to drop their bikes and run away. It’s pretty difficult to tell.
Tipping over on your bicycle wouldn't tear apart your clothes like that. I've had plenty of bike accidents, none of them have ever reduced my shirt into a bloody strip of fabric. We can call into question Western narratives without disbelieving our own eyes and trying to convince ourselves that people who have been maimed are just taking naps. You can support something without pretending it's never had any flaws.
You're right. The more I look into it, the less crazy of an event that it seems. It was still shitty though. And definitely played right into the hands of the anti-communist propagandists.
It’s like the nazis and the holocaust denial.
How the fuck is this garbage being upbeared
Because there are still some reasonable people in this world.
People are literally looking up or taking cover you dumb motherfucker, do you have eyes or is there just cables piping hot shit into your braincells? Jesus christ.
I'm looking at the same photo you are. Maybe I need new glasses, or maybe you need them?
Im looking at the goddamn photo and every person I see is either crouched, on a bike or flat on their stomach, supporting their head with their arms, meaning they are taking cover and not dead.
Yea, it's called having eyes that aren't blinded by western propaganda. I see mostly bikes and a few people holding their heads up, clearly not dead, meanwhile you seem to somehow see countless dead corpses... I wonder why.
Yeah, I guess I'm just blinded by western propaganda. You're probably right.
Why does anyone who hates tankies have to be a "chud"? Would you call Bookchin a "chud"?
Those streets are awfully clean for people who got ran over by tanks…
BODIES AND WOUNDED, HOWEVER, BEGAN TO ARRIVE AT THE RED CROSS STATION INDICATING THE EXTENT OF THE FIGHTING AND THE FACT THAT REAL BULLETS WERE BEING USED. AS THE MILITARY BEGAN TO REACH THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE SQUARE AND SHOTS WERE FIRED IN THE VICINITY OF THE RED CROSS STATION, MRS. GALLO DECIDED SHE WANTED TO LEAVE.
Where is 10000 or indiscriminate firing or tank rolling over? I don’t deny people died, nobody does, the scale is the question. There is very proud tradition to inflate victim numbers of regime’s enemies, so that your fucks up wouldn’t look too bad/make them look bad
I'm with you on that. I'm sure it wasn't 10k, but it was a lot of people, and it wasn't cool or good.
Of course, any death is not cool and good. I just feel massacre of even 1000 people been that famous is obviously work of propaganda, each year massacres of this scale happen. Only in imperial core they don’t happen, cause they have fancy security apparatus to get them beforehand/nice crowd dispersal weapons
I don't know. I feel like all the vehement denial surrounding this massacre makes me believe that it actually did happen.
Seems like there's a few people here are debating that there are dead people in the images. I think there are some dead people in these images. CW: Corpses. I partially agree with Guy Dudeman's Photoshop job here. I think the incident is a use of state power that definitely took out some innocent people. I also believe that it helped stop China from falling like the Soviet Union did. In any case, it's no worse than an average year for America. China is clearly the lesser evil here.
Plenty of Western and international sources claim that nothing happened in Tianamen Square that night.
Those sources do often claim that violence did occur elsewhere and I honestly wouldn't put it past any military or police group to use violence if they can get away with it but it's certainly not as set in stone as you might think.
It's also important to note that governments can often be so segmented in control that soldiers firing on a group won't always be representative of command. For all the deaths and murders that are accountable to the US government in the Middle East, there's also no doubt plenty of murders that were done by more rogue soldiers and squads all promising each other not to tell the higher ups.
So we would want internal documents and communications between higher-ups of the military and the Chinese government at the time to determine intents.
There's certainly a lot of evidence suggesting that there was some pretty violent military action going down, but the details aren't really set in stone at all.
Makes sense. So - here's a question for you... are all cops bastards even when they're communist cops?
Generally? Cops can be less bastards but they're going to default to being shit the large large majority of the time just due to the position and the offen unchecked (sometimes impossible to check) positions of power they can be in.
Like sadist types are always going to be attracted to that sort of role and they're always going to have situations where they beat up and abuse people while their buddies look the other way.
The idea of a communist state as being perfection free from human evils is just absurdity.
Makes sense. So when we eventually DO go full-communism, it's still going to be ok to say ACAB? Right?
This assumes that we can and eventually will go full communism which is a nice assumption to make but never guaranteed.
Also hopefully we can make other structural changes that better accounts for these issues, how things like the economy functions is only one part of overall life.
Like let's say Life is 50 different pieces, making one or two pieces good doesn't mean that all pieces will just fall into place.
Kinda like allowing child labor to flourish and billionaires to exist, and to empower western billionaires... but somehow they're "on a leash"?
If one believes the PRC is trying to act towards the benefit of humanity, people who work under the direction of the state will be working towards the state’s causes. On this basis, it makes sense to say Chinese cops are not all bastards.
So, on the other hand, if one believes that the US Government (state/local, in the case of the Police) are working towards the benefit of humanity, then are they justified in saying that not all American cops are bastards?
A State is State is State, and all states believe they're working toward the good of humanity.
“Does being a cop in China give one the ability to exercise cruel control over local civilians with a degree of impunity?” In some places, maybe so. In others, probably not, on the basis that cops have way less leeway to behave abusively [at least in some parts of China] than cops do just about anywhere in America.
I would say that cops in San Francisco have a different level of leeway to behave abusively than cops in Florida or the rest of the South do.
you’re one of those liberals that will readily denounce the US while parroting its propaganda
First of all, I resent you calling me a liberal. I am a leftist. One can be a leftist without being a tankie.
Secondly, there is a kernel of truth in almost every bit of propaganda. That's how you get good propaganda.
state officials often lie
Like when China says they had zero covid deaths yesterday?
I think most politicians, being paid to vote and legislate the way they do, are probably not terribly concerned with the morality of their actions, otherwise they probably would not be auctioning their loyalty.
I agree with that.
My argument had to do with the reader’s own evaluation of a state, not the state’s evaluation of itself.
My point is that the purpose of the formation of any state/government is always to "work toward the good of the people of the state". No matter if the policies of that state are objectively moral or immoral, the intention is always benevolent, and often genuinely so.
generally cops in the imperial core/western/capitalist country protect the wealth and wealthy, in communist/leftist countries the cops are there to protect the people.
The type of person that becomes a cop is always gonna be a bastard
The people in that pic seem pretty clearly alive. Some abandoned bikes and a few folks wearing white shirts taking cover with no signs of blood.
edit: take the L my guy. As an american I find it hard to care about this when my government nakedly does much worse than this on the regular, with malicious intent
I don't subscribe to whataboutism, and I don't deny that the US is the worst country.
Do you believe there is any acceptable number of people who can die to protect a socialist project?
No, there is no acceptable number.
do you know how many died in China? None.
LOL. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you. And a vacation home in florida.
Capitalism is an ideology of death and the cost of inaction is unconscionable.
I completely agree with you on this.
You would choose to allow the capitalist to murder?
No. I wouldn't.
So you actually believe China's capitalist government line that "zero" people died in China from Covid? Why are you allowing yourself to be so gullible?
How can you agree that inaction is unconscionable, and then claim that there is no acceptable amount of bloodshed to protect a socialist project? Capitalists have and will continue to engage in tremendous bloodshed to destroy socialist projects, the only way to respond is with bloodshed, you cant peacefully protest an invasion or color revolution. You are saying that inaction is unconscionable but that no action that will inevitably need to be taken can be acceptable, it doesn't make sense.
Capitalists have and will continue to engage in tremendous bloodshed to destroy socialist projects, the only way to respond is with bloodshed
I disagree.
When are you going to admit that your hatred of china stems from the fact that you're a racist bitch?
How do you get it to show up inline like that? I don't see it in the emoticons menu.
Honestly, what does it mean?
From where I am sitting it seems like some weird armchair history nerd shit about what is elemtally an unimportant historical event.
Is there anything useful we can extrapolste from this for future consideration? I kinda don't think there is
So when the topic of China comes up and I reveal that sentiments can be boiled down to “fuck the Chinese government”, people get really surprised. Like, you can see them doing the math in their head. Jackass, I fucking enlisted
This is just hilarious
Being anti-China is actually a very unique and good position to have, which is why everyone has it. You’re just a contrarian, sweaty.
Basically, if you support any revolutions that actually succeeded in their goals, you're bad. You should only support theoretical Libertarian Socialist and Anarchist revolutions that may happen someday, and even those you should pre-emptively apologize for actually.
What about Rojava and EZLN?
I think if they were more successful/bigger than a just a regional player, they'd have to be more authoritarian or they would be perceived as such. But there's probably more to it than that. Does one have to be "authoritarian" to succeed?
Rojava exists at the behest of like 3 different nations bc it helps their foreign policy objectives. Why would I care about the success of an op? No shade to actual comrades, but it's laughable that this state dept shit gets fawning adoration and praise from American leftists when there are wildflowers of socialist activity growing fucking everywhere.
The Viet Minh got support from the US too. Were they just an op? However, they did succeed to the point that Vietnam supporters get called 'tankie' now.
EZLN is explicitly not anarchist and they don't like it when american dipshits call them that.
They are their own thing that has arisen from the specific material and historical circumstances of their region (read this) I got the tude because american "anarchists" often tout them as an example of anarchy in action when they are definitely not an anarchist or even libertarian socialist organization. They have some overlap but they are absolutely unique and do not ascribe to those labels and do not like their struggles being exploited by americans.
Even the three arrows feels like a fash symbol, even tho I know it isnt
Well there's that mystery solved. What a bunch of valor stealing libs
Oh, you see this everywhere. People are great at seeing the problems, but not necessarily in assessing the root cause.
If only someone had taken the time to assess the root cause :curious-marx:
Words have really gotten away from themselves. I've been banned for being a tankie before which is funny. Tankie iirc comes from the supporters of sending the tanks into Hungary in the 50s, these days its kinda used as a pejorative for any Marxist and sometimes for anything left of liberal. To me, modern 'tankies' are the gonzalites and anti-micegenists. Some of the wilder maoists and MLs. People who try to rehabilitate Lysenko unironically. They shouldn't be taken seriously. I do think among this clique of people though there is something of an American Anti-Deutch type deal going on.
I think the core meaning of "tankie" is "someone willing to use organized violence for socialism", then the evolution of the term makes sense.
I've kinda just been using Tankie to mean ML, even though it historically doesn't make sense.
If your position is "Why are they so far left and how can we pull them to the right?" you need to take a hard look at yourself and who that puts you in alliance with.
reminder that this sub posted this monstrosity . Anyone else notice the rather large nose they drew the auth soc? Or the angles on the star?
