I don't want to directly reply to the people who liked Kingkiller Chronicles because A.) they called out the bad stuff and B.) everyone's allowed to have problematic favs and I don't want to attack them for liking a book I don't because that's the pettiest nerd shit ever, but I am going to post thing complaining about it because I am also a weird pedantic loser.
Ugh, I hate those books. Mostly because I was promised "the best Fantasy since X GREAT BOOK" and then it was an overwritten piece of cringe, bad fanfic level plot and characters and story. I'll admit Rothfuss's prose is better than most fanfic by dint of complexity, but that same complexity is all flash with no substance. It's not great prose in the way of either Hemingway or Faulkner, more like it's interesting prose because most people are too self-conscious when writing to purposely do something so bad and so long-winded.
Also, like, I hate to admit it but I was in love with Name of the Wind for like a week. I tore through four-hundred pages while thinking "oh, it's his first book, everyone says it's great, I'm sure it'll get good just around the corner." I could see Rothfuss was setting up a grand deconstruction of a bunch of the great Fantasy books that came before him and I was there for it.
Then there's an especially cringe scene where the Main Character has his instrument broken by a rival during a performance, but he plays on anyway and makes everyone in the room, from young women to old jaded performers, cry their eyes out, and it was the most overwritten, silly scene in the book yet, and I realized it was never going to get better, that I'd been given a false bill of sale. So that week of goodwill turned to bitterness and I've never been able to let it go.
Also also, I watched a bunch of interviews and panels with Patrick Rothfuss, and based on those I do not like the man. He'll go on long rants about feminism and combating misogyny and how I think he headed some sort of feminist discussion group at the college he teached at, meanwhile the man's books are dripping with Ready Player One levels of nerd misogyny and I refuse to believe that's intentional on his part. He really strikes me as a false ally, he oozes that "guy who thinks he's a feminist but lacks the self-awareness to examine his own views or behavior" energy. I know some of the examples of misogyny in the book are intentional on his part, but it's too pervasive to be all of them. He's not Nabokov.
And he talked over Robin Hobb on a panel at some con. Robin fucking Hobb.
Anyway my favorite book is the A Song of Ice and Fire series by George Martin. Whaddya mean I'm a hypocrite? No, every bad thing in ASOIAF is intentional on Martin's part, he has no unconscious biases and is actually a perfect writer. Especially all the child rape. Definitely. (Actually I think Martin gets a lot of unfair criticism from performatively woke Twitter people, but he gets a lot of fair criticism too. Like, I think the criticism of there being too much rape is a bit rich when 1/6 of women in modern America are raped, but I agree with critics who say that if you're going to have women raped in the name of grittiness you shouldn't shy away from the fact that dudes have been raping dudes for all history as well. The sexual violence is gendered in a way that probably doesn't reflect the reality of a period of post-failed-state chaos)
And I forgot to mention that Martin's construction of highly racially divided societies is painfully outdated. Maybe you could find pseudo-ethnostates in the pre-modern world, but any major trade route or port city would have a much more diverse range of people. I suppose it's kinda convenient that Westeros, the place with all the white people, is the most powerful nation in that world, while the continent with all the brown people is mostly made up of disparate city-states and warlike savages. Fans argue that since we're seeing those cultures from the eyes of white people we aren't getting the full story, giving Martin the benefit of doubt, but if that's the case it probably should be made a little more explicit in the text. And in the War of the Roses time period Martin is most directly inspired by, Europe was a balkanized backwater while the Islamic world was a cultural powerhouse and China was already a thousand year-old empire and I'm sure other peoples were also very impressive compared to Europe but I'm unfamiliar with their histories. But, it could be argued that Martin is commenting on the modern White Supremacist state of the American Empire moreso than any obtuse point about Europe in the Middle Ages so I'm not sure how to feel about that particular point.
Fuck I'm such a nerd. Read theory you dumb bitch. GRRM literally doesn't matter.
It is a good book, but it is better to not have read it, as you can project more onto it from yourself and less experience what it is about.
In terms of Rothfuss / King Killer,
Also, like, I hate to admit it but I was in love with Name of the Wind for like a week. I tore through four-hundred pages while thinking "oh, it's his first book, everyone says it's great, I'm sure it'll get good just around the corner." I could see Rothfuss was setting up a grand deconstruction of a bunch of the great Fantasy books that came before him and I was there for it.
Is something that I shared, too. But then I gave up after the not ideal writing of women and power fantasy trips that are happening and enjoyed it as Isekai light anime in which I don't take stuff serious. Did help the vibe quite a bit. Of course the exterior - the tavern and such - are a different vibe. There are also slight elements of a weird early 2000s progressive homophobia or trans phobia to be found at some edges.
Some phrases of the books are quite nice though and the description of scenes does paint a picture and feels somewhat like an old TTRPG group you are sitting with on a table.
Westeros, the place with all the white people, is the most powerful nation in that world
Westeros is as much a "nation" as the Holy Roman Empire. The Seven Kingdoms, as implied by the name, aren't very unified, and even this low level of centralization has only been the case for 300 years. Before Aegon's Conquest, the various kingdoms were independent and waged constant wars with one another, and even after the Conquest there was still the occasional civil war and lots of instability.
As for power - far more powerful empires have existed, like the Great Empire of the Dawn (although that one's possibly mythical), the Valyrian Freehold, the Old Empire of Ghis, and one still exists - the Golden Empire of Yi Ti. Seeing as Yi Ti is basically fantasy China, it would probably be the most powerful state, although it seems that at the time the books are taking place it's been pretty weakened. Westeros however definitely isn't the most powerful "nation", because it simply isn't a unified political entity - some of the individual kingdoms might be considered to be powerful, but not the whole continent.
while the continent with all the brown people is mostly made up of disparate city-states and warlike savages
While I definitely agree that the Dothraki are a pretty dumb portrayal of a steppe culture, those disparate city-states are quite wealthy, and powerful at least in an economic sense, if not a military one. They are also arguably more culturally developed, if we consider an oligarchy of merchants to be more developed that feudalism, and while they may be disparate now, most of them trace their origin back to the Valyrian Freehold, which controlled all of their territories and more as a unified state.
Besides, there's more to the further east of the continent - Slaver's Bay is also incredibly wealthy, and similarly used to be part of a unified empire until it collapsed. There's various states around the Bone Mountains, and Yi Ti even further east.
Europe was a balkanized backwater while the Islamic world was a cultural powerhouse and China was already a thousand year-old empire
That's basically the case in ASOIAF. Westeros IS and has historically been a balkanized backwater, while the Free Cities are more politicaly and economicaly developed and used to be part of one of the world's greatest empires, and Yi Ti has been around since the Long Night, with the Great Empire of the Dawn that it (allegedly) succedeed being even older.
Wow the experience with loving the Name of the Wind in the throes of ripping through it maps so neatly onto mine. God the second book was the one that made me realise I gotta give it up.
I don't want to directly reply to the people who liked Kingkiller Chronicles because A.) they called out the bad stuff and B.) everyone's allowed to have problematic favs and I don't want to attack them for liking a book I don't because that's the pettiest nerd shit ever, but I am going to post thing complaining about it because I am also a weird pedantic loser.
Ugh, I hate those books. Mostly because I was promised "the best Fantasy since X GREAT BOOK" and then it was an overwritten piece of cringe, bad fanfic level plot and characters and story. I'll admit Rothfuss's prose is better than most fanfic by dint of complexity, but that same complexity is all flash with no substance. It's not great prose in the way of either Hemingway or Faulkner, more like it's interesting prose because most people are too self-conscious when writing to purposely do something so bad and so long-winded.
Also, like, I hate to admit it but I was in love with Name of the Wind for like a week. I tore through four-hundred pages while thinking "oh, it's his first book, everyone says it's great, I'm sure it'll get good just around the corner." I could see Rothfuss was setting up a grand deconstruction of a bunch of the great Fantasy books that came before him and I was there for it.
Then there's an especially cringe scene where the Main Character has his instrument broken by a rival during a performance, but he plays on anyway and makes everyone in the room, from young women to old jaded performers, cry their eyes out, and it was the most overwritten, silly scene in the book yet, and I realized it was never going to get better, that I'd been given a false bill of sale. So that week of goodwill turned to bitterness and I've never been able to let it go.
Also also, I watched a bunch of interviews and panels with Patrick Rothfuss, and based on those I do not like the man. He'll go on long rants about feminism and combating misogyny and how I think he headed some sort of feminist discussion group at the college he teached at, meanwhile the man's books are dripping with Ready Player One levels of nerd misogyny and I refuse to believe that's intentional on his part. He really strikes me as a false ally, he oozes that "guy who thinks he's a feminist but lacks the self-awareness to examine his own views or behavior" energy. I know some of the examples of misogyny in the book are intentional on his part, but it's too pervasive to be all of them. He's not Nabokov.
And he talked over Robin Hobb on a panel at some con. Robin fucking Hobb.
Anyway my favorite book is the A Song of Ice and Fire series by George Martin. Whaddya mean I'm a hypocrite? No, every bad thing in ASOIAF is intentional on Martin's part, he has no unconscious biases and is actually a perfect writer. Especially all the child rape. Definitely. (Actually I think Martin gets a lot of unfair criticism from performatively woke Twitter people, but he gets a lot of fair criticism too. Like, I think the criticism of there being too much rape is a bit rich when 1/6 of women in modern America are raped, but I agree with critics who say that if you're going to have women raped in the name of grittiness you shouldn't shy away from the fact that dudes have been raping dudes for all history as well. The sexual violence is gendered in a way that probably doesn't reflect the reality of a period of post-failed-state chaos)
And I forgot to mention that Martin's construction of highly racially divided societies is painfully outdated. Maybe you could find pseudo-ethnostates in the pre-modern world, but any major trade route or port city would have a much more diverse range of people. I suppose it's kinda convenient that Westeros, the place with all the white people, is the most powerful nation in that world, while the continent with all the brown people is mostly made up of disparate city-states and warlike savages. Fans argue that since we're seeing those cultures from the eyes of white people we aren't getting the full story, giving Martin the benefit of doubt, but if that's the case it probably should be made a little more explicit in the text. And in the War of the Roses time period Martin is most directly inspired by, Europe was a balkanized backwater while the Islamic world was a cultural powerhouse and China was already a thousand year-old empire and I'm sure other peoples were also very impressive compared to Europe but I'm unfamiliar with their histories. But, it could be argued that Martin is commenting on the modern White Supremacist state of the American Empire moreso than any obtuse point about Europe in the Middle Ages so I'm not sure how to feel about that particular point.
Fuck I'm such a nerd. Read theory you dumb bitch. GRRM literally doesn't matter.
My real favorite book is Caliban and the Witch. Which I haven't read, but seems like the sort of thing I ought to like.
It is a good book, but it is better to not have read it, as you can project more onto it from yourself and less experience what it is about.
In terms of Rothfuss / King Killer,
Is something that I shared, too. But then I gave up after the not ideal writing of women and power fantasy trips that are happening and enjoyed it as Isekai light anime in which I don't take stuff serious. Did help the vibe quite a bit. Of course the exterior - the tavern and such - are a different vibe. There are also slight elements of a weird early 2000s progressive homophobia or trans phobia to be found at some edges.
Some phrases of the books are quite nice though and the description of scenes does paint a picture and feels somewhat like an old TTRPG group you are sitting with on a table.
Westeros is as much a "nation" as the Holy Roman Empire. The Seven Kingdoms, as implied by the name, aren't very unified, and even this low level of centralization has only been the case for 300 years. Before Aegon's Conquest, the various kingdoms were independent and waged constant wars with one another, and even after the Conquest there was still the occasional civil war and lots of instability. As for power - far more powerful empires have existed, like the Great Empire of the Dawn (although that one's possibly mythical), the Valyrian Freehold, the Old Empire of Ghis, and one still exists - the Golden Empire of Yi Ti. Seeing as Yi Ti is basically fantasy China, it would probably be the most powerful state, although it seems that at the time the books are taking place it's been pretty weakened. Westeros however definitely isn't the most powerful "nation", because it simply isn't a unified political entity - some of the individual kingdoms might be considered to be powerful, but not the whole continent.
While I definitely agree that the Dothraki are a pretty dumb portrayal of a steppe culture, those disparate city-states are quite wealthy, and powerful at least in an economic sense, if not a military one. They are also arguably more culturally developed, if we consider an oligarchy of merchants to be more developed that feudalism, and while they may be disparate now, most of them trace their origin back to the Valyrian Freehold, which controlled all of their territories and more as a unified state. Besides, there's more to the further east of the continent - Slaver's Bay is also incredibly wealthy, and similarly used to be part of a unified empire until it collapsed. There's various states around the Bone Mountains, and Yi Ti even further east.
That's basically the case in ASOIAF. Westeros IS and has historically been a balkanized backwater, while the Free Cities are more politicaly and economicaly developed and used to be part of one of the world's greatest empires, and Yi Ti has been around since the Long Night, with the Great Empire of the Dawn that it (allegedly) succedeed being even older.
deleted by creator
Wow the experience with loving the Name of the Wind in the throes of ripping through it maps so neatly onto mine. God the second book was the one that made me realise I gotta give it up.
deleted by creator