Putin is one of those guys where the support really needs to be critical. Support him for opposing the US and its European satellites, criticise him for just about everything else.
Yeah. It's not like he exactly needs our support. He is quite powerful on his own. We should resist the CIA-inspired panic about hordes of Slavic shitposters disintegrating our "Democratic Institutions." We should resist NATO expansionism in Eastern Europe. But I think those are all things we can do quite well without pulling out the "critical support for comrade Putin" card.
That's what critical support is, though. You support his actions which oppose US hegemony, and oppose pretty much all the rest. Nobody needs our support anyway, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Maybe I am splitting hairs. I just feel like demystifying the Kremlinology by saying Putin is a rational actor making rational decisions given the geopolitical context and that NATO is cynically self-interested falls short of taking his side. But maybe that assumes it is even possible to opine on these things neutrally, an excuse which Liberals tend to use egregiously.
I suppose if I consider the objectives of both, I certainly hope NATO is the loser, but that is the basis of my position. It is not so much that the Russian Federation is a flawed good thing that I support despite my criticisms as much as they just happen to be in the crosshairs of a leviathan evil which must be stopped at all costs.
I just feel like critical support needs to be distinguished from lesser-evilism in some way, though I don't know how I'd go about drawing that line.
Honestly, this is a sober take that I agree with. The RF government is good insofar as their international interests run counter to those of the USA, so we should support them in that as well as in opposing any NATO control over Russia. They aren't socialists, or anything approaching that, though.
We should support the RF government insofar as their actions are good and productive, while understanding that they're not a socialist and their domestic policy is generally terrible, and condemning that. Very critical support.
...you know a lot of socialists who are big fans of Putin? It's usually been a fringe position in communities I've seen. The argument is almost always "better than the alternative".
Eh, I see what you're saying. It's degrees of critical support. Some folks tend to use it to mean figures / movements that are socialist, but have strange beliefs / policies / regressive social policies.
Yeah, in this case we all obviously know that Putin is not a socialist. However, he does have an interest in opposing US imperialism in many cases and in opposing NATO control over Russia, and those things are what we should support. It's very critical support.
Western liberal version of feminism and political correctness
What do you mean by this, could you explain? LGBTQ+ and women's liberation isn't political correctness. Cultural norms are of course going to be different, that's true for most things across cultures.
I think what you've noticed is more of the vulgarizing of revolutionaries into non-threatening icons that Lenin wrote about.
It shouldn't be any surprise that capitalism has commodified liberation movements (especially with neoliberalism). That's a new potential market! Porky loves new customers.
:eco-porky: "Gimme more o' that pink capitalism."
It also tends to be white upper classs figures who assimilate because Amerika is racist apartheid state and those figures already had misaligned class interests. Stonewall was an insurrection lead by people of color. Liberation has always been intersectional.
It’s impressive how COINTELPRO really did a number on the American left, isn’t it? The left hasn’t had any massive political power in the imperial core for decades, I don’t think most people here would argue otherwise.
Good we agree that Amerika is a racist apartheid state. Slavery is even still legal, so of course the system has been mass incarcerating people of color. The racial caste system was never abolished, it just got redesigned.
I read “The New Jim Crow” a couple years ago and liked it a lot. I would love for her to write a follow up that speaks more on the class components and how it intertwines with capitalism.
Oh they're valuable trading partners, not arguing about that. China is making good inroads with the rest of the global south however and also already does a lot of business wirh the imperial core (thank you based Deng).
None of this explains how Russia competing with the West-neolibs is preventing the rise of fascism. Russia is neolib too, there's a fascist movement there too.
In terms of having a less rabid neighbor on China's frontier you're correct and i'll agree that's better than some alternatives. but it ain't providing an alternative to neoliberalism or fascism.
an alternative is what is needed to combat fascism and China, Belarus, even indigenous euro socialists are doing more for that than Russia
talking completely agreeable points about China then transposing them to Russia ain't gonna convince me.
China is a fucking dictatorship of the proletariat im not gonna accept Russia being given the same leeway on the grounds it also opposes US hegemony.
at its core your argument is 'something's gotta give' and you hope Russia is going to take a not fascist path at some future juncture.
where is the evidence for Russia supporting socialism? what has the Putin government done to advance socialism? what is your belief of Putin preventing fascism based on?
wanting a bigger slice of the pie is NOT building the productive forces for socialism. it does not fight fascism.
I'm afraid Europe will go fascist no matter what. Worsened material conditions due to climate change will make Europe a continent of angry middle class chuds who feel they have been cheated out of the privilege and the treats they feel entitled to. Meanwhile climate change will also create increasing number of refugees, leading to even more murderous and sadistic deportation and border security regimes. The chances of Europe not going fascist and genociding the Muslims are small.
Someone once told me this and I now think it’s true: “Libs see the world through personalities, Marxists see the world as history.” History is shaped by material forces, not individual leaders.
That's true. Polish and Ukrainian far right is obviously anti-russian and it was a mistake on my part that i didn't include them, since it is an obviously trumped up effort to get more cannon fodder in the army in case of a conflict which is more likely to be started from the west than Russia. But if you look further, Hungarian fash are very much pro russian (so much that they're sending mercenaries to Donbass to fight for Russia), Italian and French and if i remember correctly, Greek far-right also has ties to russian oligarchs. I didn't mean he's happy about it as "he must be a fash", more like as it's a favorable development for him.
Putin is one of those guys where the support really needs to be critical. Support him for opposing the US and its European satellites, criticise him for just about everything else.
i have trouble wanting to even critically support a person whose government has overseen huge backsliding on LGBT+ issues in Russia, tbh.
Yeah. It's not like he exactly needs our support. He is quite powerful on his own. We should resist the CIA-inspired panic about hordes of Slavic shitposters disintegrating our "Democratic Institutions." We should resist NATO expansionism in Eastern Europe. But I think those are all things we can do quite well without pulling out the "critical support for comrade Putin" card.
That's what critical support is, though. You support his actions which oppose US hegemony, and oppose pretty much all the rest. Nobody needs our support anyway, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Maybe I am splitting hairs. I just feel like demystifying the Kremlinology by saying Putin is a rational actor making rational decisions given the geopolitical context and that NATO is cynically self-interested falls short of taking his side. But maybe that assumes it is even possible to opine on these things neutrally, an excuse which Liberals tend to use egregiously.
I suppose if I consider the objectives of both, I certainly hope NATO is the loser, but that is the basis of my position. It is not so much that the Russian Federation is a flawed good thing that I support despite my criticisms as much as they just happen to be in the crosshairs of a leviathan evil which must be stopped at all costs.
I just feel like critical support needs to be distinguished from lesser-evilism in some way, though I don't know how I'd go about drawing that line.
Honestly, this is a sober take that I agree with. The RF government is good insofar as their international interests run counter to those of the USA, so we should support them in that as well as in opposing any NATO control over Russia. They aren't socialists, or anything approaching that, though.
We should support the RF government insofar as their actions are good and productive, while understanding that they're not a socialist and their domestic policy is generally terrible, and condemning that. Very critical support.
I wish I could make this comment visible to every single socialist.
...you know a lot of socialists who are big fans of Putin? It's usually been a fringe position in communities I've seen. The argument is almost always "better than the alternative".
Putin is for sure a fringe position, but celebrating Deng and Assad are a lot more common.
...maybe don't throw Deng in with the other two. I've got my problems with him, but I wouldn't put him in the same category.
Eh, I see what you're saying. It's degrees of critical support. Some folks tend to use it to mean figures / movements that are socialist, but have strange beliefs / policies / regressive social policies.
Yeah, in this case we all obviously know that Putin is not a socialist. However, he does have an interest in opposing US imperialism in many cases and in opposing NATO control over Russia, and those things are what we should support. It's very critical support.
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What do you mean by this, could you explain? LGBTQ+ and women's liberation isn't political correctness. Cultural norms are of course going to be different, that's true for most things across cultures.
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Yup. Intersectional liberation will definitely be reached in ways that match the material conditions of each country / culture.
LGBTQ and Women's rights are due to the left, not western liberalism. Liberals have their own defanged versions, of course.
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I think what you've noticed is more of the vulgarizing of revolutionaries into non-threatening icons that Lenin wrote about.
It shouldn't be any surprise that capitalism has commodified liberation movements (especially with neoliberalism). That's a new potential market! Porky loves new customers.
:eco-porky: "Gimme more o' that pink capitalism."
It also tends to be white upper classs figures who assimilate because Amerika is racist apartheid state and those figures already had misaligned class interests. Stonewall was an insurrection lead by people of color. Liberation has always been intersectional.
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It’s impressive how COINTELPRO really did a number on the American left, isn’t it? The left hasn’t had any massive political power in the imperial core for decades, I don’t think most people here would argue otherwise.
Good we agree that Amerika is a racist apartheid state. Slavery is even still legal, so of course the system has been mass incarcerating people of color. The racial caste system was never abolished, it just got redesigned.
I read “The New Jim Crow” a couple years ago and liked it a lot. I would love for her to write a follow up that speaks more on the class components and how it intertwines with capitalism.
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I think you're swinging too far in the other direction, champ. China doesn't need Russia, even though they have good ties.
Russia is very close to fash already, it's just national vs international bourgeoisie running the dog and pony show.
I agree that Russia is underestimated and that ol' Vlad is better than any neolib puppet NATO would install, that's for sure.
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Oh they're valuable trading partners, not arguing about that. China is making good inroads with the rest of the global south however and also already does a lot of business wirh the imperial core (thank you based Deng).
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Yeah, I think we have the same opinion about this, capitalism isn't going to go out peacefully.
i would like you explain this. a far-right nationalist country being more neolib makes neolib countries more fascist?
Europe fucking sucks no argument but i see no causal link between these events
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None of this explains how Russia competing with the West-neolibs is preventing the rise of fascism. Russia is neolib too, there's a fascist movement there too.
In terms of having a less rabid neighbor on China's frontier you're correct and i'll agree that's better than some alternatives. but it ain't providing an alternative to neoliberalism or fascism.
an alternative is what is needed to combat fascism and China, Belarus, even indigenous euro socialists are doing more for that than Russia
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talking completely agreeable points about China then transposing them to Russia ain't gonna convince me.
China is a fucking dictatorship of the proletariat im not gonna accept Russia being given the same leeway on the grounds it also opposes US hegemony.
at its core your argument is 'something's gotta give' and you hope Russia is going to take a not fascist path at some future juncture.
where is the evidence for Russia supporting socialism? what has the Putin government done to advance socialism? what is your belief of Putin preventing fascism based on?
wanting a bigger slice of the pie is NOT building the productive forces for socialism. it does not fight fascism.
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I'm afraid Europe will go fascist no matter what. Worsened material conditions due to climate change will make Europe a continent of angry middle class chuds who feel they have been cheated out of the privilege and the treats they feel entitled to. Meanwhile climate change will also create increasing number of refugees, leading to even more murderous and sadistic deportation and border security regimes. The chances of Europe not going fascist and genociding the Muslims are small.
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Idk if you've read news from Europe nowadays but the continent is turning fash on its own terms anf Putin is very happy about this
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That's true. Polish and Ukrainian far right is obviously anti-russian and it was a mistake on my part that i didn't include them, since it is an obviously trumped up effort to get more cannon fodder in the army in case of a conflict which is more likely to be started from the west than Russia. But if you look further, Hungarian fash are very much pro russian (so much that they're sending mercenaries to Donbass to fight for Russia), Italian and French and if i remember correctly, Greek far-right also has ties to russian oligarchs. I didn't mean he's happy about it as "he must be a fash", more like as it's a favorable development for him.
Yes, agree.