• Nakoichi [they/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    You're just distracting from the original point. People aren't striking because mandates. You're undermining the labor movement and deflecting from the real cause that is workplace safety and wages.

    • volkvulture [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      "Distracting?"

      People are striking because of conditions, which include bad governance & bad corporate policy... largely around how inconsistent the handling of the pandemic has been

      why are you separating out ultrapartisan reductionism here? both parties did horribly & New York City still has the worst death rates since the pandemic started

      • Nakoichi [they/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        I fucking work retail this is not partisan this is about safety.

          • Nakoichi [they/them]
            ·
            3 years ago

            You're using vague terms and moving the goal posts all over the place. The vaccine mandates are not why people are striking. FULL STOP.

              • please_dont [he/him]
                ·
                3 years ago

                volkvulture has been a community member since before tha sub was banned

            • volkvulture [none/use name]
              ·
              3 years ago

              people are definitely protesting over mandates globally, the labor disputes are largely to do with worsening conditions around changes implemented or policies inadequately implemented since the pandemic started

              • Nakoichi [they/them]
                ·
                3 years ago

                ffs we already addressed this. There are people protesting yes. But protest =/= strike.

                There are hundreds of thousands of people striking right now for reasons that are specific and have zero relation to vaccine mandates.

                You are trying to use their struggle to push some anti vaxx shit and you're acting super sus about it.

                  • Nakoichi [they/them]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    No you're cherry picking. The overwhelming majority of strikes have nothing to do with vaccines. Why is this the hill you are willing to die on?

                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      3 years ago

                      they're all in the same cauldron of conditions, which includes increased pressure on the workers by governments & the managers & owners & bosses through inconsistent and/or inadequately applied policies

                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                          ·
                          3 years ago

                          yes, the material conditions are how much workers will put up with before resigning or protesting or going on wildcat strikes without union approval/protection

                          • Nakoichi [they/them]
                            ·
                            3 years ago

                            and you're focusing on a tiny few workers and not the real issue. Which is wages and safety measures. You're siding with anti-vaxxers to... what exactly?

                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                              ·
                              3 years ago

                              I see thousands in Italy having done the same

                              https://qz.com/2074464/italys-new-vaccine-mandate-prompts-labor-strikes-protests/

                              • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                ·
                                edit-2
                                3 years ago

                                Okay but that's not why tens of thousands more people are striking for wages and safety measures against covid. You're caping for right wingers right now and I can't imagine why.

                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                  ·
                                  3 years ago

                                  Yes, the safety measures applied by the companies, but workers definitely don't want government mandates either

                                  • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                    ·
                                    3 years ago

                                    Workers are the ones advocating for these measures too. I should know I'm engaged in labor organizing myself. What you are doing right now is not helpful and not welcome.

                                    It's self-crit time bud.

                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                      ·
                                      edit-2
                                      3 years ago

                                      Workers aren't advocating for government restrictions & mandates on themselves, they're advocating for the opposite

                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                              ·
                                              edit-2
                                              3 years ago

                                              Yes, I did the self-crit.. it caused me to not demonize average Americans & workers who are protesting & resigning & struggling against the ownership/employer classes

                                              bye

                                              • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                                ·
                                                3 years ago

                                                You're ignoring the fact that many union and strike demands are to implement such measures. More so in fact than people quitting or protesting against them. And the latter of those people are overwhelmingly chuds. You're defending reactionaries right now.

                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                  ·
                                                  3 years ago

                                                  They want employers to protect them using company resources... workers are not protesting for government restrictions against themselves

                                                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                          ·
                                                          3 years ago

                                                          oh right... democracy & socialism is about how special & smart you are as an individual lol

                                                          • silent_water [she/her]
                                                            ·
                                                            3 years ago

                                                            ahh yes, the right of refusal is real socialism. cast aside collective demands for common health - what matters is the individual. this is socialism. :thonk:

                                                            you're arguing for property rights, liberal.

                                                                  • Spike [none/use name]
                                                                    ·
                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                    Except that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus and less likely to become infected while also being less likely to be symptomatic or die if they do get the virus.

                                                                    https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-09-24/covid-vaccines-do-they-change-risk-of-infection/100484432

                                                                    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

                                                                    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

                                                                    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

                                                                    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261991v1

                                                                    I can link more if you'd like.

                                                                    You're literally wrong but you're too stubborn to believe otherwise because you have a parasocial attachment to an antivax grifter. Grow up.

                                                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                      ·
                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta

                                                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                      ·
                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                      No, the most recent studies say that unvaccinated & vaccinated people are equally susceptible & equally capable of spreading the virus once infected

                                                                      but severity of individual cases is reduced in Vaccinated persons

                                                                      https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

                                                                      "Although vaccinated people with a breakthrough infection are much less likely to become severely ill than unvaccinated, the new study shows that they can be carrying similar amounts of virus and could potentially spread the virus to other people. This study did not directly address how easily vaccinated people can get infected with SARS-CoV-2, or how readily someone with a breakthrough infection can transmit the virus. "

                                                                      • hexaflexagonbear [he/him]
                                                                        ·
                                                                        edit-2
                                                                        3 years ago

                                                                        Just because the viral load among asymptomatic people is the same with or without the vaccine, doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine has no effect on the virus. It seems that viral load is correlated with the probability of displaying symptoms, and since the vaccine lowers that probability, it may well be the case that while viral load given symptom and viral load given no symptom is the same across the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, nevertheless viral load given infection is lower in the vaccinated population.

                                                                      • Spike [none/use name]
                                                                        ·
                                                                        3 years ago

                                                                        You linked three articles citing one study which says "Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections". and "The analysis also found that 25% of vaccinated household contacts still contracted the disease from an index case, while 38% of those who hadn’t had shots became infected."

                                                                        This means that no, vaccinated people are not equally susceptible of getting the virus.

                                                                        There are also two issues with the study; "The proportion of asymptomatic cases did not differ among fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated delta groups", and "However, given that index cases were identified through routine symptomatic surveillance, there might have been a selection bias towards identifying untypically symptomatic vaccine breakthrough index cases." This means that the study is not conclusive and more needs to be done to capture a real population. Medical science doesn't work by simply having one or two studies on a subject, make a conclusion, then move on. There needs to be many reproducible results of varying types of studies to build a body of evidence.

                                                                        Now, if your interpretation was correct that vaccines have no effect on the spread of the virus, then it would further reinforce the need to be vaccinated since it would seem inevitable that everyone will be infected, therefore the only protection from death or severe symptoms is being vaccinated.

                                                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                      ·
                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                      "“Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures,” the study said."

                                                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                      ·
                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                      No, unvaccinated people are just as likely to become infected & spread the virus, but not as likely to have advanced or severe symptoms

                                                                        • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                          ·
                                                                          3 years ago

                                                                          no, the infections themselves happen regardless, but asymptomatic cases still spread the virus

                                                                          https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/can-i-still-spread-covid-19-after-vaccination

                                                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                              ·
                                                                              3 years ago

                                                                              yes, it's people who have caught the virus... are you not reading?

                                                                              "In summary, the virus is changing and we are learning more about the new variants (including the now predominant delta variant) every day, but it is possible for someone who has been vaccinated to develop a breakthrough infection (with or without symptoms) and spread the virus"

                                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                  ·
                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                  No, it's certain that it happens... the data bears this out

                                                                                  asymptomatic cases in vaccinated individuals still transmit the virus, hence why there are recommendations for fully vaccinated people to mask up & practice hygiene & social distancing still

                                                                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                      ·
                                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                                      "The researchers looked at 869 positive samples, 500 from Healthy Yolo Together and 369 from Unidos en Salud. All the Healthy Yolo Together samples were from people who were asymptomatic at the time of positive test result, and three-quarters were from unvaccinated individuals. The Unidos en Salud samples included both asymptomatic and symptomatic cases. Just over half (198) of the Unidos en Salud samples were unvaccinated"

                                                                                      Asymptomatic people aren't going to get tested usually... this study was for asymptomatic cases at the time of positive test result

                                                                                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                              ·
                                                                                              3 years ago

                                                                                              no, they don't reduce one's susceptibility to being infected with the virus, they only reduce symptoms or severity of symptoms if a breakthrough case does occur

                                                                                              people get the virus even with the vaccine, and spread the virus despite having the vaccine & not showing symptoms

                                                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                  ·
                                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                                  COVID vaccines are not designed to give sterilising immunity

                                                                                                  "COVID-19 vaccines were never going to give us sterilizing immunity; it's possible they never will. But the reason isn't just their design, or the wily nature of the virus, or heavy and frequent exposures, though those factors all play a role. It's that sterilizing immunity itself might be a biological myth.Sep 9, 2021"

                                                                                                  • TrudeauCastroson [he/him]
                                                                                                    ·
                                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                                    sterilizing immunity

                                                                                                    you're moving goalposts. A vaccine also doesn't need to be 100% effective in stopping spread/infection to work to reduce overall case counts.

                                                                                                    You're less likely to get covid if you get vaccinated. Thus you're less likely to get it in the first place and spread it to others.

                                                                                                    You're arguing that because a vaccine doesn't let you walk into a room of coughing corona patients without PPE that it's 0% effective at stopping spread. This is a stupid argument.

                                                                        • Three_Magpies [he/him]
                                                                          ·
                                                                          3 years ago

                                                                          I'm pretty sure this is true, and it's always been true, but people have chosen to ignore it.

                                                              • silent_water [she/her]
                                                                ·
                                                                3 years ago

                                                                this country is a settler state founded on genocide and slavery. consent is nowhere to be found in it's legal system. it's founded on property rights and especially the right to dispose of one's property as the owner prefers. the framework you're referring to extended those rights to include the body as one's property in place of anything resembling informed consent. you are defending property rights.

                                                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                  ·
                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                  Cuba's flag was designed by someone who defended slavery & wanted Cuba to join the USA as a slave state

                                                                  Did you know that Cuba had slavery 100 years before Anglo North America did and that indigenous removal was as bad there as anywhere?

                                                                  Cuba didn't change its flag after the revolution

                                                                  Is Cuba allowed to be socialist even though Spaniard colonial-settlers still live there & genocide happened?

                                          • WALLTHERICH [comrade/them]
                                            ·
                                            3 years ago

                                            No, you're an anti-vaxxer, which puts you solidly at odds with workers everywhere. Advocating for mass death for the working class is bad, lib.