this is grossly misrepresenting
yall posting on a redditor website
the “left” in the United States completely failed to leverage this and only capitulated to the establishment on this front only signifies how weak and useless left-wing movements are in this country.
Actually its revolutionary to support our brave PMC allies who heroically work to deny healthcare to disabled people
If you're looking for social democracy, the only thing that woul get us there is if China started exporting revolution and american students started getting excited about the south korean socialist republic or whatever.
if China started exporting revolution and american students started getting excited about the south korean socialist republic or whatever
:sicko-charging:
I think this is the actual reason the right opposes the vaccine. Because they know if this was free, why not everything?
Well, they absorb media from the thought leaders who are really masters of spin and dishonesty.
Labor unions generally oppose vaccine mandates because their job is to stand up for all workers - even anti-vax workers - regardless of whether it's right or wrong.
That being said, vaccine mandates are not the reason why there is a strike wave right now. To suggest that these workers are striking against vaccines is a right-wing, pro-capitalist talking point.
Vaccine mandates are good and there is absolutely no intelligent left-wing case against them.
Richard Wolff needs to get vaccinated against :brainworms:
By this anti-mandate logic the union endangers 99% of their membership at work so their 1% chud members can “freely” spew COVID out of their commemorative maga kazoos during lunch hour.
Letting the soft handed professional class run central offices was a mistake.
Isn’t this like defending workers who don’t want to follow OSHA regulations or something?
They are just making the work environment more dangerous for everyone else.The carpenter's union is taking away my freedom by requiring steel toes!!! :powercry-2:
OSHA are regulations the company has to follow for the most part, worker training is part of that, but the standards of safety are being put on the workplace not individual workers.
Vaccine requirements are the same as requiring things such as PPE for workers.
Probably, but obviously people aren't taking it that way. I'm not saying there shouldn't be vaccine requirements, it's just having it at the company level instead of state is always going to get union push back just because that's like their whole job.
I don't think it's because of mandates. It's a tight labor market and quits and strikes are more likely to happen when labor is hard to come by. Have any of the John Deere union leaders cited vaccines? Kellogg's? No, they cite poor working conditions and low wages at a time of record profits.
https://mattbruenig.com/2021/10/31/is-the-strike-and-quit-wave-due-to-vaccine-mandates/
Got a question for ya since you seem against mandates. If I had ebola would you want me to be quarantined even if I opposed it?
Right I'm trying to get at the underlying principle here. On the one hand you got an obligation to uphold a person's right to autonomy; otoh you've got an obligation to the people that would die.
yes, the people who are at most risk of dying are the ones who choose not to get the vaccine, right? so it's about consent still at that point
is ebola as contagious as COVID? is it a global health concern at the moment?
Lol cmon quit trying to make it a question I'm not asking. I get that you don't support the vaccine mandate for covid. That's fine I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to understand is this just specific to covid? Or is it just on principle?
Sorry for the 20 questions just hard to talk to people on twitter about this shit. So what do you think the best way forward is. Like I make you king/queen for the day type thing. Just build a lot of hospitals and run a lot of PSAs?
Another poster made the only correct argument in that unions & employers have to come to agreements & employers can definitely incentivize these things at the bargaining table
Where employees are not protected by such associations, there will be more unrest
Given that their username has "volk" in it, I'm guessing they're a troll.
I've been talking about America this whole time... I've heard waiting for advanced procedures in Canada is normal
This thread's original subject matter was about America
Anti-vaxxers are an extreme minority, particularly among the most vulnerable populations.
Having waiting lists for specialists & risky operations I've always heard is quite normal
People choosing not to get the vaccine doesn't mean they're against the vaccine or don't believe in the science
Canada has guarantees to serving everyone though, America doesn't
Canada also doesn't have the same kind of legal & social questions, and if the government implemented a mandate, there would be compliance
Waiting lists are normal, and since the pandemic has started the waits have increased
People choosing not to get the vaccine doesn’t mean they’re against the vaccine or don’t believe in the science
yes, it literally does
It's the inevitable result of what you're advocating for. It's only sensible to assume you support the outcome of your actions, else why take the action in the first place?
Unless you are simply very stupid.
@volkvulture - This site and its community is firmly against antivax disinformation. This is a final warning to drop the topic.
Extending this as a courtesy since you’ve been on the site for a while and others mentioned you were also on the sub. Any other account would have been banned already.
I’m still working through reported comments, this may shift to a full ban.
Everyone should get vaccinated. End of sentence. Arguing against vaccination is advocating for the systemic deaths of the working class and other marginalized people.
It’s okay for the government to arrest me if I refuse to wear a seatbelt while driving, but it’s bad if I lose my job because I refuse to get vaccinated during a pandemic.
I like Wolff but have been pretty suspicious of his idea that worker co-ops can peacefully revolutionize the world. Sounds like lib mischief to me!
This is like Hanlon's razor but wrong.
Always assume people are a Fed rather than them being wrong/problematic
Hasn’t Wolff said before they were more famous the reason you organize unions and co-ops to provide breathing room for workers while letting them figure out themselves the system is impossible to change
Dunno if he said it, but it makes sense, not only from a strategic perspective, but also from a "let's reduce human suffering" perspective.
If Unions and co-ops when done right can improve material conditions of particularly vulnerable working class individuals, provide opportunities for horizontal/democratic management structures to be created and mature, and undermine neoliberal ideology :zizek: it makes sense they should be institutions we as leftists should push forward.
Socialism is when you, worker-shareholder, undermine your neighbor who happens to be a worker-shareholder competitor. In the name of economic freedom.
Really wish this site had collapsible threads, stop arguing with trolls dorks, I'm trying to goof on radlib Wolff :angry-hex:
But I want the thread automatically collapsed for everyone, so they can see my neat takes
Cursed, but I still wonder how many chuds did actually quit their jobs because of vaccine mandates.
Never underestimate :amerikkka::brainworms:
34 NYPD out of ~35K.
This is basically a migrant caravan fear story.
My mom works for a company that has thousands of employees, tons of chuds. They had to implement a vax mandate for everyone.
Of the thousands a couple hundred complained when it was instituted and threatened to quit.
Of those couple hundred ~100 tried to get a religious exemption (none did).
Of those ~100, none quit.
All anecdotal of course but very few people seemed to have actually quit, which tracks with precious vaccine mandate research showing that it works across the board.
wolff no what r u doing
still willing to give "Big" Dick Wolff the benefit of the doubt, since this is literally the first bad take I see coming from him, and I think he's an incredible educator who has actually had an impact on my way of seeing the world... but damn dude
you're right, that would've been the right call, didn't think of it. for shame
Old white dude in the imperial core has terrible opinion, more at 11.
In before someone says something about how "X was the reason I was radicalized so he's not bad and I will let it slide"
UAW was also protesting on behalf of its grad and healthcare workers against the mandates. Their job is to advocate for employee rights and reject employer overreach but this was blindly stupid and from talking to folks it turned off a lot their membership.
It's a wedge issue and its working marvelously.
Bottom line, if you're in a Union under contract and your boss tries to fire you for <insert reason here> your Union should be defending you. Period. That's what the damned thing is there for.
It isn't the job of the Union to set health care policy. It's their job to back their members from arbitrary management decisions.
If management wants the workforces vaccinated, they can bargain for that in the next contract. I guarantee you'll get more people lining up for the jab if it means better salary and stronger pensions.
Ok but A. The contract is not up right now (lmao if you think UAW would try to bring it to the table early over literally anything) and B. it’s cannon fodder for the “COVID heroes” (hospital and univ admins) to point to the lunacy of labor. A major part of labor action is winning community support for the workers (see CWA strike in Buffalo or Deere strike in Iowa), which you won’t get when most people including workers support enforcing vaccines, especially in NYC where UAW was doing this and where the pandemic was most deadly.
And this mandate isn’t out of the ordinary - schools and many workplaces require FDA-approved vaccine (e.g. MMR) records for their students and employees. Why are unions only complaining about this now? It’s a blanket worker rights policy misdirected into supporting anti-vaccine fearmongering. Take it further to show like less than 1% followed through with taking leave over vaccination and this is such a niche and secondary issue for unions to be wasting oxygen on right now.
And to the point of the whole post, Wolff demonstrated poor judgment here by defending a company talking point that the strikes are about vacation mandates and not poor salary/benefits and conditions during the pandemic. I see this misinformation all over Twitter (someone said the taxi debt hunger strike was about anti-vaccine???) and elsewhere because people blindly listen to the corporate labor reporters acting as stenographers for the executives. At best he’s not paying attention to what the workers are saying on the picket line and it’s disappointing.
I see what you’re saying but I ultimately disagree with the strategy. Blind goals like this demonstrate the shortcomings of trade unions not favoring workers as a whole just their own - this is about safety and the government making businesses mandate what they should have done themselves. But this is the world we live in we’re not getting communism next week.
And you are correct that the unions are strongly encouraging people to be vaccinated regardless, just fighting this weird battle on vaccines instead of say focusing on their the rhetoric on being pro-workplace safety and having the employer paying hazard pay if you have to come in. Otherwise most companies are not firing workers but putting them on leave, but that’s splitting hairs.
And love him but I would not give that much credit to Wolff. Go to your nearest picket line and they’ll tell you what their strike is about.
Go to your nearest picket line and they’ll tell you what their strike is about.
The closest I am to a strike is the SW Airline Go Brandon guy participating in a sick-in to shut down Southwest for a week.
So I'll openly admit, my perception may be skewed. But all the Chuds in my office and my neighborhood and doing the Uncle Dance on my Facebook feed are bitching about vaccinations. The people I see seriously upset about wages and working conditions aren't striking. They are jumping shit from my current employer and finding work elsewhere.
there's some principled advocacy
but that doesn't cover municipal & state mandates... which is its own beast for sure
the pandemic worsened existing conditions & has been a corporate policy nightmare for the service sector especially
workers are on edge over the entire situation... "working conditions" is just a polite way to say that improperly & unevenly applied corporate policies have pitted workers against customers, with owners & managers ever coming out on top
Working conditions includes workers striking over lack of covid protection measures.
Honestly really disappointed in Wolff for this.
yes, which falls mainly on owners & employers and not average mischaracterized Americans
Wolff is right here
We wouldn't if the US wasn't full of anti-vaxx brainworms.
Don't tell me about what is or isn't about science while doing some underhanded anti-vaxx apologia.
You're just distracting from the original point. People aren't striking because mandates. You're undermining the labor movement and deflecting from the real cause that is workplace safety and wages.
"Distracting?"
People are striking because of conditions, which include bad governance & bad corporate policy... largely around how inconsistent the handling of the pandemic has been
why are you separating out ultrapartisan reductionism here? both parties did horribly & New York City still has the worst death rates since the pandemic started
You're using vague terms and moving the goal posts all over the place. The vaccine mandates are not why people are striking. FULL STOP.
volkvulture has been a community member since before tha sub was banned
I don't remember them. Also it doesn't matter. Ether way, less intense antivax posting has got others banned.
Seems like the community could use some clean-up if that's the case.
people are definitely protesting over mandates globally, the labor disputes are largely to do with worsening conditions around changes implemented or policies inadequately implemented since the pandemic started
ffs we already addressed this. There are people protesting yes. But protest =/= strike.
There are hundreds of thousands of people striking right now for reasons that are specific and have zero relation to vaccine mandates.
You are trying to use their struggle to push some anti vaxx shit and you're acting super sus about it.
No you're cherry picking. The overwhelming majority of strikes have nothing to do with vaccines. Why is this the hill you are willing to die on?
they're all in the same cauldron of conditions, which includes increased pressure on the workers by governments & the managers & owners & bosses through inconsistent and/or inadequately applied policies
yes, the material conditions are how much workers will put up with before resigning or protesting or going on wildcat strikes without union approval/protection
and you're focusing on a tiny few workers and not the real issue. Which is wages and safety measures. You're siding with anti-vaxxers to... what exactly?
I see thousands in Italy having done the same
https://qz.com/2074464/italys-new-vaccine-mandate-prompts-labor-strikes-protests/
Okay but that's not why tens of thousands more people are striking for wages and safety measures against covid. You're caping for right wingers right now and I can't imagine why.
Yes, the safety measures applied by the companies, but workers definitely don't want government mandates either
Workers are the ones advocating for these measures too. I should know I'm engaged in labor organizing myself. What you are doing right now is not helpful and not welcome.
It's self-crit time bud.
Workers aren't advocating for government restrictions & mandates on themselves, they're advocating for the opposite
I'm a worker, and you are wrong whether you want to hear it or not
Yes, I did the self-crit.. it caused me to not demonize average Americans & workers who are protesting & resigning & struggling against the ownership/employer classes
bye
You're ignoring the fact that many union and strike demands are to implement such measures. More so in fact than people quitting or protesting against them. And the latter of those people are overwhelmingly chuds. You're defending reactionaries right now.
They want employers to protect them using company resources... workers are not protesting for government restrictions against themselves
oh right... democracy & socialism is about how special & smart you are as an individual lol
ahh yes, the right of refusal is real socialism. cast aside collective demands for common health - what matters is the individual. this is socialism. :thonk:
you're arguing for property rights, liberal.
Except that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus and less likely to become infected while also being less likely to be symptomatic or die if they do get the virus.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-09-24/covid-vaccines-do-they-change-risk-of-infection/100484432
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261991v1
I can link more if you'd like.
You're literally wrong but you're too stubborn to believe otherwise because you have a parasocial attachment to an antivax grifter. Grow up.
"“Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures,” the study said."
No, the most recent studies say that unvaccinated & vaccinated people are equally susceptible & equally capable of spreading the virus once infected
but severity of individual cases is reduced in Vaccinated persons
https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people
"Although vaccinated people with a breakthrough infection are much less likely to become severely ill than unvaccinated, the new study shows that they can be carrying similar amounts of virus and could potentially spread the virus to other people. This study did not directly address how easily vaccinated people can get infected with SARS-CoV-2, or how readily someone with a breakthrough infection can transmit the virus. "
Just because the viral load among asymptomatic people is the same with or without the vaccine, doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine has no effect on the virus. It seems that viral load is correlated with the probability of displaying symptoms, and since the vaccine lowers that probability, it may well be the case that while viral load given symptom and viral load given no symptom is the same across the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, nevertheless viral load given infection is lower in the vaccinated population.
You linked three articles citing one study which says "Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections". and "The analysis also found that 25% of vaccinated household contacts still contracted the disease from an index case, while 38% of those who hadn’t had shots became infected."
This means that no, vaccinated people are not equally susceptible of getting the virus.
There are also two issues with the study; "The proportion of asymptomatic cases did not differ among fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated delta groups", and "However, given that index cases were identified through routine symptomatic surveillance, there might have been a selection bias towards identifying untypically symptomatic vaccine breakthrough index cases." This means that the study is not conclusive and more needs to be done to capture a real population. Medical science doesn't work by simply having one or two studies on a subject, make a conclusion, then move on. There needs to be many reproducible results of varying types of studies to build a body of evidence.
Now, if your interpretation was correct that vaccines have no effect on the spread of the virus, then it would further reinforce the need to be vaccinated since it would seem inevitable that everyone will be infected, therefore the only protection from death or severe symptoms is being vaccinated.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta
No, unvaccinated people are just as likely to become infected & spread the virus, but not as likely to have advanced or severe symptoms
no, the infections themselves happen regardless, but asymptomatic cases still spread the virus
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/can-i-still-spread-covid-19-after-vaccination
yes, it's people who have caught the virus... are you not reading?
"In summary, the virus is changing and we are learning more about the new variants (including the now predominant delta variant) every day, but it is possible for someone who has been vaccinated to develop a breakthrough infection (with or without symptoms) and spread the virus"
No, it's certain that it happens... the data bears this out
asymptomatic cases in vaccinated individuals still transmit the virus, hence why there are recommendations for fully vaccinated people to mask up & practice hygiene & social distancing still
"The researchers looked at 869 positive samples, 500 from Healthy Yolo Together and 369 from Unidos en Salud. All the Healthy Yolo Together samples were from people who were asymptomatic at the time of positive test result, and three-quarters were from unvaccinated individuals. The Unidos en Salud samples included both asymptomatic and symptomatic cases. Just over half (198) of the Unidos en Salud samples were unvaccinated"
Asymptomatic people aren't going to get tested usually... this study was for asymptomatic cases at the time of positive test result
no, they don't reduce one's susceptibility to being infected with the virus, they only reduce symptoms or severity of symptoms if a breakthrough case does occur
people get the virus even with the vaccine, and spread the virus despite having the vaccine & not showing symptoms
COVID vaccines are not designed to give sterilising immunity
"COVID-19 vaccines were never going to give us sterilizing immunity; it's possible they never will. But the reason isn't just their design, or the wily nature of the virus, or heavy and frequent exposures, though those factors all play a role. It's that sterilizing immunity itself might be a biological myth.Sep 9, 2021"
sterilizing immunity
you're moving goalposts. A vaccine also doesn't need to be 100% effective in stopping spread/infection to work to reduce overall case counts.
You're less likely to get covid if you get vaccinated. Thus you're less likely to get it in the first place and spread it to others.
You're arguing that because a vaccine doesn't let you walk into a room of coughing corona patients without PPE that it's 0% effective at stopping spread. This is a stupid argument.
I'm pretty sure this is true, and it's always been true, but people have chosen to ignore it.
this country is a settler state founded on genocide and slavery. consent is nowhere to be found in it's legal system. it's founded on property rights and especially the right to dispose of one's property as the owner prefers. the framework you're referring to extended those rights to include the body as one's property in place of anything resembling informed consent. you are defending property rights.
Cuba's flag was designed by someone who defended slavery & wanted Cuba to join the USA as a slave state
Did you know that Cuba had slavery 100 years before Anglo North America did and that indigenous removal was as bad there as anywhere?
Cuba didn't change its flag after the revolution
Is Cuba allowed to be socialist even though Spaniard colonial-settlers still live there & genocide happened?
what does the flag have to do with the economic, social, legal, and political system?
Cuba had an economic and social and legal & political system built on slavery
Cuba didn't get rid of slavery for almost 20 years after USA did
they had a literal revolution. a flag doesn't show continuity. what the fuck are you on? this is stupid as shit, I'm done responding to you.
No, you're an anti-vaxxer, which puts you solidly at odds with workers everywhere. Advocating for mass death for the working class is bad, lib.
70% is only valid as a herd immunity target for diseases that do not reinfect and do not demonstrate an evolutionary rate capable of vaccine escape.
I appreciate the nuance Wolff thinks he’s applying but it’s neither the time nor place.
Edited as my 70% was vague.
Yes it's both the time and the place
~70% is for 12+, for adults it's actually quite a bit higher
For the most vulnerable populations the vaccine rate is 85%+
70% rate for the country doesn’t mean everywhere in the country reached 70% which is why we’re getting variants that can break through vaccines
it means the entire country has reached 70% for people over the age of 12
Oklahoma has 50%. Wyoming has 48%. The country as a whole has 67% for one dose
The whole country is at 68% with at least one dose, we can say that's ~70%
the most vulnerable elderly populations are vaccinated nationwide at a rate of over 80%
So not even 70% are fully vaccinated, which doesn’t even matter if you’re in a local area hovering below 50%
Of course it matters, particularly when we account for the fact that in most areas the most vulnerable populations are vaccinated at a rate of over 80%
Jimmy Dore isn't anti-vax... he's said this multiple times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYkbIf27Gqs
No, I communicated the Fauci was inconsistent, because that's what I said
Many people are protesting & striking & resigning against mandates
Better covid protections & higher wages are part and parcel to the larger struggle against being pitted against customers by owners/managers
Many people are protesting & striking & resigning against mandates
There have been dozens of stories about this and they’ve all been debunked as right-wing grift. There’s a lot of money in this narrative right now and you’re literally parroting what amounts to science denial propaganda
https://www.forbes.com/sites/masonbissada/2021/11/01/2300-fdny-firefighters-call-in-sick-in-apparent-protest-of-vaccine-mandate/?sh=129a0f336b2f
so you're saying 2,000 NY firefighters just called in for some other reason?
I’m saying that the commissioner has every incentive to call what they’re doing a “strike” and is literally the only source saying so. If you put a bunch of workers on unpaid leave, a lot of them are going to burn their sick time. That’s not a strike. But a strike would be illegal and would let them recall the workers, which is the whole point.
yes, we can call labor action many names, but it's still labor action... within or outside of union strictures
https://www.forbes.com/sites/masonbissada/2021/11/01/2300-fdny-firefighters-call-in-sick-in-apparent-protest-of-vaccine-mandate/?sh=129a0f336b2f
firefighters
firefighters are still necessary for social function... and they are blue collar workers
And they are a microscopic segment of the workforce in a very specific sector, limited to a certain geographic area; the vast, vast majoirty of people on strike right now, from John Deere, to coal miners, to film workers, to Starbuck's baristas, to Amazon warehouse drones are protesting shit working conditions; a couple hundred freedom patriot cops and firefighters dos not speak for the working class.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/business/covid-vaccine-workers-quit/index.html
this says the opposite
Wow! 2000 whole workers vs the entire rest of the fucking country! Amazing!
no it says 72% of all workers who are unvaccinated feel this way
if their employer mandates vaccines and doesn't offer the testing option
Learn to fucking read
37% of unvaccinated workers say they will quit their jobs if forced to either get vaccinated
37 is less than 72
" 72% of the unvaccinated workers say they will quit."
Union reps & labor experts say it's the most complex issue they have had to deal with in ages
"“This is one of the most complex problems that unions have faced possibly in my lifetime,” says Susan Schurman, a professor of labor studies and employment relations at the Rutgers University School of Management and Labor Relations. “Because there is so much diversity among their members in terms of how they are thinking about this.”
Tyson Foods (TSN) offered about 120,000 employees additional paid time off if they comply with its new COVID-19 vaccine mandate. A coalition of unions representing roughly 43,000 Disney World (DIS) employees agreed to a mandate with the company, though it excludes workers with a relevant medical condition or religious beliefs. And in Washington, a union working on behalf of 47,000 state employees reached a tentative deal on a vaccine mandate that will afford workers an extra personal day."
if their employer mandates vaccines and doesn’t offer the testing option*
Learn.
To.
FUCKING.
READ
And how many unvaccinated workers are we talking about here? If 72% of the workforce ("But the survey found that 72% of adults now have gotten at least the first of two vaccine shots.") is already vaccinated, what is the sample sizeof this unlisted survey? How many people are they? Six? Who fucking cares, I'm not standing up for the labor rights of antivaxxers.
It says only 5% of workers lol... so again, it's a nearly irrelevant minority
You seem to just want an excuse to look down at people that you consider lesser than you
yeah, I like to make up some extreme category of deplorable in my head & on the Internet & attack them too : )
I will also add, that I don't give a shit about "a study" done by a neolib thinktank sponsored by pharma CEOs
wouldn't the pharma CEOs be urging workers to get the vaccine?
yes, which falls mainly on owners & employers and not average mischaracterized Americans
yes
Wolff is right here
no
Everyone knows that the proper way to organize is to focus entirely on divisive wedge issues and burn bridges with anyone who disagrees. Who can forget Marx's famous words - "Workers of the world, divide!"
