• apparitionist [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      this is grossly misrepresenting

      yall posting on a redditor website

      the “left” in the United States completely failed to leverage this and only capitulated to the establishment on this front only signifies how weak and useless left-wing movements are in this country.

      Actually its revolutionary to support our brave PMC allies who heroically work to deny healthcare to disabled people

          • Nagarjuna [he/him]
            ·
            3 years ago

            If you're looking for social democracy, the only thing that woul get us there is if China started exporting revolution and american students started getting excited about the south korean socialist republic or whatever.

            • LeninWeave [none/use name]
              ·
              edit-2
              3 years ago

              if China started exporting revolution and american students started getting excited about the south korean socialist republic or whatever

              :sicko-charging:

            • Vncredleader
              ·
              3 years ago

              Whoever said we are looking for social democracy? :lenin-fancy:

        • Deadend [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          I think this is the actual reason the right opposes the vaccine. Because they know if this was free, why not everything?

  • DetroitLolcat [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    Labor unions generally oppose vaccine mandates because their job is to stand up for all workers - even anti-vax workers - regardless of whether it's right or wrong.

    That being said, vaccine mandates are not the reason why there is a strike wave right now. To suggest that these workers are striking against vaccines is a right-wing, pro-capitalist talking point.

    Vaccine mandates are good and there is absolutely no intelligent left-wing case against them.

    Richard Wolff needs to get vaccinated against :brainworms:

    • cilantrofellow [any]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      By this anti-mandate logic the union endangers 99% of their membership at work so their 1% chud members can “freely” spew COVID out of their commemorative maga kazoos during lunch hour.

      Letting the soft handed professional class run central offices was a mistake.

    • REallyN [she/her,they/them]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Isn’t this like defending workers who don’t want to follow OSHA regulations or something?
      They are just making the work environment more dangerous for everyone else.

      • Dingdangdog [he/him,comrade/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        OSHA are regulations the company has to follow for the most part, worker training is part of that, but the standards of safety are being put on the workplace not individual workers.

        • Jadzia_Dax [she/her]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Vaccine requirements are the same as requiring things such as PPE for workers.

          • Dingdangdog [he/him,comrade/them]
            ·
            edit-2
            3 years ago

            Probably, but obviously people aren't taking it that way. I'm not saying there shouldn't be vaccine requirements, it's just having it at the company level instead of state is always going to get union push back just because that's like their whole job.

      • DetroitLolcat [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        I don't think it's because of mandates. It's a tight labor market and quits and strikes are more likely to happen when labor is hard to come by. Have any of the John Deere union leaders cited vaccines? Kellogg's? No, they cite poor working conditions and low wages at a time of record profits.

        https://mattbruenig.com/2021/10/31/is-the-strike-and-quit-wave-due-to-vaccine-mandates/

          • MockingTurd [he/him]
            ·
            3 years ago

            Got a question for ya since you seem against mandates. If I had ebola would you want me to be quarantined even if I opposed it?

              • MockingTurd [he/him]
                ·
                3 years ago

                Right I'm trying to get at the underlying principle here. On the one hand you got an obligation to uphold a person's right to autonomy; otoh you've got an obligation to the people that would die.

                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  yes, the people who are at most risk of dying are the ones who choose not to get the vaccine, right? so it's about consent still at that point

                          • MockingTurd [he/him]
                            ·
                            3 years ago

                            Lol cmon quit trying to make it a question I'm not asking. I get that you don't support the vaccine mandate for covid. That's fine I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to understand is this just specific to covid? Or is it just on principle?

                  • dallasw
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    deleted by creator

                      • dallasw
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        1 year ago

                        deleted by creator

                          • dallasw
                            ·
                            edit-2
                            1 year ago

                            deleted by creator

                            • volkvulture [none/use name]
                              ·
                              3 years ago

                              I've been talking about America this whole time... I've heard waiting for advanced procedures in Canada is normal

                              • dallasw
                                ·
                                edit-2
                                1 year ago

                                deleted by creator

                                • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                  ·
                                  3 years ago

                                  This thread's original subject matter was about America

                                  Anti-vaxxers are an extreme minority, particularly among the most vulnerable populations.

                                  Having waiting lists for specialists & risky operations I've always heard is quite normal

                                  People choosing not to get the vaccine doesn't mean they're against the vaccine or don't believe in the science

                                  • dallasw
                                    ·
                                    edit-2
                                    1 year ago

                                    deleted by creator

                                    • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                      ·
                                      edit-2
                                      3 years ago

                                      Canada has guarantees to serving everyone though, America doesn't

                                      Canada also doesn't have the same kind of legal & social questions, and if the government implemented a mandate, there would be compliance

                                      Waiting lists are normal, and since the pandemic has started the waits have increased

                                  • WALLTHERICH [comrade/them]
                                    ·
                                    3 years ago

                                    People choosing not to get the vaccine doesn’t mean they’re against the vaccine or don’t believe in the science

                                    yes, it literally does

  • KiraNerys [she/her]A
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    @volkvulture - This site and its community is firmly against antivax disinformation. This is a final warning to drop the topic.

    Extending this as a courtesy since you’ve been on the site for a while and others mentioned you were also on the sub. Any other account would have been banned already.

    I’m still working through reported comments, this may shift to a full ban.

    Everyone should get vaccinated. End of sentence. Arguing against vaccination is advocating for the systemic deaths of the working class and other marginalized people.

  • duderium [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    It’s okay for the government to arrest me if I refuse to wear a seatbelt while driving, but it’s bad if I lose my job because I refuse to get vaccinated during a pandemic.

    I like Wolff but have been pretty suspicious of his idea that worker co-ops can peacefully revolutionize the world. Sounds like lib mischief to me!

    • Express [any,none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Hasn’t Wolff said before they were more famous the reason you organize unions and co-ops to provide breathing room for workers while letting them figure out themselves the system is impossible to change

      • TraschcanOfIdeology [they/them, comrade/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Dunno if he said it, but it makes sense, not only from a strategic perspective, but also from a "let's reduce human suffering" perspective.

        If Unions and co-ops when done right can improve material conditions of particularly vulnerable working class individuals, provide opportunities for horizontal/democratic management structures to be created and mature, and undermine neoliberal ideology :zizek: it makes sense they should be institutions we as leftists should push forward.

    • cilantrofellow [any]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      Socialism is when you, worker-shareholder, undermine your neighbor who happens to be a worker-shareholder competitor. In the name of economic freedom.

  • CyborgMarx [any, any]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Really wish this site had collapsible threads, stop arguing with trolls dorks, I'm trying to goof on radlib Wolff :angry-hex:

  • carbohydra [des/pair]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Cursed, but I still wonder how many chuds did actually quit their jobs because of vaccine mandates.

    Never underestimate :amerikkka::brainworms:

    • DasKarlBarx [he/him,comrade/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      My mom works for a company that has thousands of employees, tons of chuds. They had to implement a vax mandate for everyone.

      Of the thousands a couple hundred complained when it was instituted and threatened to quit.

      Of those couple hundred ~100 tried to get a religious exemption (none did).

      Of those ~100, none quit.

      All anecdotal of course but very few people seemed to have actually quit, which tracks with precious vaccine mandate research showing that it works across the board.

    • guppyman [any]
      ·
      3 years ago

      I know of a handful, I doubt it's more than a few thousand nationwide

  • joaomarrom [he/him, comrade/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    wolff no what r u doing

    still willing to give "Big" Dick Wolff the benefit of the doubt, since this is literally the first bad take I see coming from him, and I think he's an incredible educator who has actually had an impact on my way of seeing the world... but damn dude

    • Homestar440 [he/him]
      hexagon
      ·
      3 years ago

      you're right, that would've been the right call, didn't think of it. for shame

  • Jadzia_Dax [she/her]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Old white dude in the imperial core has terrible opinion, more at 11.

    • pppp1000 [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      In before someone says something about how "X was the reason I was radicalized so he's not bad and I will let it slide"

  • cilantrofellow [any]
    ·
    3 years ago

    UAW was also protesting on behalf of its grad and healthcare workers against the mandates. Their job is to advocate for employee rights and reject employer overreach but this was blindly stupid and from talking to folks it turned off a lot their membership.

    • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      It's a wedge issue and its working marvelously.

      Bottom line, if you're in a Union under contract and your boss tries to fire you for <insert reason here> your Union should be defending you. Period. That's what the damned thing is there for.

      It isn't the job of the Union to set health care policy. It's their job to back their members from arbitrary management decisions.

      If management wants the workforces vaccinated, they can bargain for that in the next contract. I guarantee you'll get more people lining up for the jab if it means better salary and stronger pensions.

      • cilantrofellow [any]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        Ok but A. The contract is not up right now (lmao if you think UAW would try to bring it to the table early over literally anything) and B. it’s cannon fodder for the “COVID heroes” (hospital and univ admins) to point to the lunacy of labor. A major part of labor action is winning community support for the workers (see CWA strike in Buffalo or Deere strike in Iowa), which you won’t get when most people including workers support enforcing vaccines, especially in NYC where UAW was doing this and where the pandemic was most deadly.

        And this mandate isn’t out of the ordinary - schools and many workplaces require FDA-approved vaccine (e.g. MMR) records for their students and employees. Why are unions only complaining about this now? It’s a blanket worker rights policy misdirected into supporting anti-vaccine fearmongering. Take it further to show like less than 1% followed through with taking leave over vaccination and this is such a niche and secondary issue for unions to be wasting oxygen on right now.

        And to the point of the whole post, Wolff demonstrated poor judgment here by defending a company talking point that the strikes are about vacation mandates and not poor salary/benefits and conditions during the pandemic. I see this misinformation all over Twitter (someone said the taxi debt hunger strike was about anti-vaccine???) and elsewhere because people blindly listen to the corporate labor reporters acting as stenographers for the executives. At best he’s not paying attention to what the workers are saying on the picket line and it’s disappointing.

          • cilantrofellow [any]
            ·
            edit-2
            3 years ago

            I see what you’re saying but I ultimately disagree with the strategy. Blind goals like this demonstrate the shortcomings of trade unions not favoring workers as a whole just their own - this is about safety and the government making businesses mandate what they should have done themselves. But this is the world we live in we’re not getting communism next week.

            And you are correct that the unions are strongly encouraging people to be vaccinated regardless, just fighting this weird battle on vaccines instead of say focusing on their the rhetoric on being pro-workplace safety and having the employer paying hazard pay if you have to come in. Otherwise most companies are not firing workers but putting them on leave, but that’s splitting hairs.

            And love him but I would not give that much credit to Wolff. Go to your nearest picket line and they’ll tell you what their strike is about.

            • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
              ·
              edit-2
              3 years ago

              Go to your nearest picket line and they’ll tell you what their strike is about.

              The closest I am to a strike is the SW Airline Go Brandon guy participating in a sick-in to shut down Southwest for a week.

              So I'll openly admit, my perception may be skewed. But all the Chuds in my office and my neighborhood and doing the Uncle Dance on my Facebook feed are bitching about vaccinations. The people I see seriously upset about wages and working conditions aren't striking. They are jumping shit from my current employer and finding work elsewhere.

      • volkvulture [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        there's some principled advocacy

        but that doesn't cover municipal & state mandates... which is its own beast for sure

  • volkvulture [none/use name]
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    the pandemic worsened existing conditions & has been a corporate policy nightmare for the service sector especially

    workers are on edge over the entire situation... "working conditions" is just a polite way to say that improperly & unevenly applied corporate policies have pitted workers against customers, with owners & managers ever coming out on top

    • Nakoichi [they/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      Working conditions includes workers striking over lack of covid protection measures.

      Honestly really disappointed in Wolff for this.

      • volkvulture [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        yes, which falls mainly on owners & employers and not average mischaracterized Americans

        Wolff is right here

            • Nakoichi [they/them]
              ·
              edit-2
              3 years ago

              We wouldn't if the US wasn't full of anti-vaxx brainworms.

              Don't tell me about what is or isn't about science while doing some underhanded anti-vaxx apologia.

                • Nakoichi [they/them]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  You're just distracting from the original point. People aren't striking because mandates. You're undermining the labor movement and deflecting from the real cause that is workplace safety and wages.

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    "Distracting?"

                    People are striking because of conditions, which include bad governance & bad corporate policy... largely around how inconsistent the handling of the pandemic has been

                    why are you separating out ultrapartisan reductionism here? both parties did horribly & New York City still has the worst death rates since the pandemic started

                    • Nakoichi [they/them]
                      ·
                      3 years ago

                      I fucking work retail this is not partisan this is about safety.

                        • Nakoichi [they/them]
                          ·
                          3 years ago

                          You're using vague terms and moving the goal posts all over the place. The vaccine mandates are not why people are striking. FULL STOP.

                            • please_dont [he/him]
                              ·
                              3 years ago

                              volkvulture has been a community member since before tha sub was banned

                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
                            ·
                            3 years ago

                            people are definitely protesting over mandates globally, the labor disputes are largely to do with worsening conditions around changes implemented or policies inadequately implemented since the pandemic started

                            • Nakoichi [they/them]
                              ·
                              3 years ago

                              ffs we already addressed this. There are people protesting yes. But protest =/= strike.

                              There are hundreds of thousands of people striking right now for reasons that are specific and have zero relation to vaccine mandates.

                              You are trying to use their struggle to push some anti vaxx shit and you're acting super sus about it.

                                • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                  ·
                                  3 years ago

                                  No you're cherry picking. The overwhelming majority of strikes have nothing to do with vaccines. Why is this the hill you are willing to die on?

                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                    ·
                                    edit-2
                                    3 years ago

                                    they're all in the same cauldron of conditions, which includes increased pressure on the workers by governments & the managers & owners & bosses through inconsistent and/or inadequately applied policies

                                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                        ·
                                        3 years ago

                                        yes, the material conditions are how much workers will put up with before resigning or protesting or going on wildcat strikes without union approval/protection

                                        • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                          ·
                                          3 years ago

                                          and you're focusing on a tiny few workers and not the real issue. Which is wages and safety measures. You're siding with anti-vaxxers to... what exactly?

                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                            ·
                                            3 years ago

                                            I see thousands in Italy having done the same

                                            https://qz.com/2074464/italys-new-vaccine-mandate-prompts-labor-strikes-protests/

                                            • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                              ·
                                              edit-2
                                              3 years ago

                                              Okay but that's not why tens of thousands more people are striking for wages and safety measures against covid. You're caping for right wingers right now and I can't imagine why.

                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                ·
                                                3 years ago

                                                Yes, the safety measures applied by the companies, but workers definitely don't want government mandates either

                                                • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                                  ·
                                                  3 years ago

                                                  Workers are the ones advocating for these measures too. I should know I'm engaged in labor organizing myself. What you are doing right now is not helpful and not welcome.

                                                  It's self-crit time bud.

                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                    ·
                                                    edit-2
                                                    3 years ago

                                                    Workers aren't advocating for government restrictions & mandates on themselves, they're advocating for the opposite

                                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                            ·
                                                            edit-2
                                                            3 years ago

                                                            Yes, I did the self-crit.. it caused me to not demonize average Americans & workers who are protesting & resigning & struggling against the ownership/employer classes

                                                            bye

                                                            • Nakoichi [they/them]
                                                              ·
                                                              3 years ago

                                                              You're ignoring the fact that many union and strike demands are to implement such measures. More so in fact than people quitting or protesting against them. And the latter of those people are overwhelmingly chuds. You're defending reactionaries right now.

                                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                ·
                                                                3 years ago

                                                                They want employers to protect them using company resources... workers are not protesting for government restrictions against themselves

                                                                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                        ·
                                                                        3 years ago

                                                                        oh right... democracy & socialism is about how special & smart you are as an individual lol

                                                                        • silent_water [she/her]
                                                                          ·
                                                                          3 years ago

                                                                          ahh yes, the right of refusal is real socialism. cast aside collective demands for common health - what matters is the individual. this is socialism. :thonk:

                                                                          you're arguing for property rights, liberal.

                                                                                • Spike [none/use name]
                                                                                  ·
                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                  Except that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus and less likely to become infected while also being less likely to be symptomatic or die if they do get the virus.

                                                                                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-09-24/covid-vaccines-do-they-change-risk-of-infection/100484432

                                                                                  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

                                                                                  https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

                                                                                  https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

                                                                                  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261991v1

                                                                                  I can link more if you'd like.

                                                                                  You're literally wrong but you're too stubborn to believe otherwise because you have a parasocial attachment to an antivax grifter. Grow up.

                                                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                    ·
                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                    "“Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures,” the study said."

                                                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                    ·
                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                    No, the most recent studies say that unvaccinated & vaccinated people are equally susceptible & equally capable of spreading the virus once infected

                                                                                    but severity of individual cases is reduced in Vaccinated persons

                                                                                    https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

                                                                                    "Although vaccinated people with a breakthrough infection are much less likely to become severely ill than unvaccinated, the new study shows that they can be carrying similar amounts of virus and could potentially spread the virus to other people. This study did not directly address how easily vaccinated people can get infected with SARS-CoV-2, or how readily someone with a breakthrough infection can transmit the virus. "

                                                                                    • hexaflexagonbear [he/him]
                                                                                      ·
                                                                                      edit-2
                                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                                      Just because the viral load among asymptomatic people is the same with or without the vaccine, doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine has no effect on the virus. It seems that viral load is correlated with the probability of displaying symptoms, and since the vaccine lowers that probability, it may well be the case that while viral load given symptom and viral load given no symptom is the same across the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, nevertheless viral load given infection is lower in the vaccinated population.

                                                                                    • Spike [none/use name]
                                                                                      ·
                                                                                      3 years ago

                                                                                      You linked three articles citing one study which says "Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections". and "The analysis also found that 25% of vaccinated household contacts still contracted the disease from an index case, while 38% of those who hadn’t had shots became infected."

                                                                                      This means that no, vaccinated people are not equally susceptible of getting the virus.

                                                                                      There are also two issues with the study; "The proportion of asymptomatic cases did not differ among fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated delta groups", and "However, given that index cases were identified through routine symptomatic surveillance, there might have been a selection bias towards identifying untypically symptomatic vaccine breakthrough index cases." This means that the study is not conclusive and more needs to be done to capture a real population. Medical science doesn't work by simply having one or two studies on a subject, make a conclusion, then move on. There needs to be many reproducible results of varying types of studies to build a body of evidence.

                                                                                      Now, if your interpretation was correct that vaccines have no effect on the spread of the virus, then it would further reinforce the need to be vaccinated since it would seem inevitable that everyone will be infected, therefore the only protection from death or severe symptoms is being vaccinated.

                                                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                    ·
                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-28/getting-vaccinated-doesn-t-stop-people-from-spreading-delta

                                                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                    ·
                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                    No, unvaccinated people are just as likely to become infected & spread the virus, but not as likely to have advanced or severe symptoms

                                                                                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                        ·
                                                                                        3 years ago

                                                                                        no, the infections themselves happen regardless, but asymptomatic cases still spread the virus

                                                                                        https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/can-i-still-spread-covid-19-after-vaccination

                                                                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                            ·
                                                                                            3 years ago

                                                                                            yes, it's people who have caught the virus... are you not reading?

                                                                                            "In summary, the virus is changing and we are learning more about the new variants (including the now predominant delta variant) every day, but it is possible for someone who has been vaccinated to develop a breakthrough infection (with or without symptoms) and spread the virus"

                                                                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                ·
                                                                                                3 years ago

                                                                                                No, it's certain that it happens... the data bears this out

                                                                                                asymptomatic cases in vaccinated individuals still transmit the virus, hence why there are recommendations for fully vaccinated people to mask up & practice hygiene & social distancing still

                                                                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                    ·
                                                                                                    3 years ago

                                                                                                    "The researchers looked at 869 positive samples, 500 from Healthy Yolo Together and 369 from Unidos en Salud. All the Healthy Yolo Together samples were from people who were asymptomatic at the time of positive test result, and three-quarters were from unvaccinated individuals. The Unidos en Salud samples included both asymptomatic and symptomatic cases. Just over half (198) of the Unidos en Salud samples were unvaccinated"

                                                                                                    Asymptomatic people aren't going to get tested usually... this study was for asymptomatic cases at the time of positive test result

                                                                                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                            ·
                                                                                                            3 years ago

                                                                                                            no, they don't reduce one's susceptibility to being infected with the virus, they only reduce symptoms or severity of symptoms if a breakthrough case does occur

                                                                                                            people get the virus even with the vaccine, and spread the virus despite having the vaccine & not showing symptoms

                                                                                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                                                ·
                                                                                                                3 years ago

                                                                                                                COVID vaccines are not designed to give sterilising immunity

                                                                                                                "COVID-19 vaccines were never going to give us sterilizing immunity; it's possible they never will. But the reason isn't just their design, or the wily nature of the virus, or heavy and frequent exposures, though those factors all play a role. It's that sterilizing immunity itself might be a biological myth.Sep 9, 2021"

                                                                                                                • TrudeauCastroson [he/him]
                                                                                                                  ·
                                                                                                                  3 years ago

                                                                                                                  sterilizing immunity

                                                                                                                  you're moving goalposts. A vaccine also doesn't need to be 100% effective in stopping spread/infection to work to reduce overall case counts.

                                                                                                                  You're less likely to get covid if you get vaccinated. Thus you're less likely to get it in the first place and spread it to others.

                                                                                                                  You're arguing that because a vaccine doesn't let you walk into a room of coughing corona patients without PPE that it's 0% effective at stopping spread. This is a stupid argument.

                                                                                      • Three_Magpies [he/him]
                                                                                        ·
                                                                                        3 years ago

                                                                                        I'm pretty sure this is true, and it's always been true, but people have chosen to ignore it.

                                                                            • silent_water [she/her]
                                                                              ·
                                                                              3 years ago

                                                                              this country is a settler state founded on genocide and slavery. consent is nowhere to be found in it's legal system. it's founded on property rights and especially the right to dispose of one's property as the owner prefers. the framework you're referring to extended those rights to include the body as one's property in place of anything resembling informed consent. you are defending property rights.

                                                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                                                                ·
                                                                                3 years ago

                                                                                Cuba's flag was designed by someone who defended slavery & wanted Cuba to join the USA as a slave state

                                                                                Did you know that Cuba had slavery 100 years before Anglo North America did and that indigenous removal was as bad there as anywhere?

                                                                                Cuba didn't change its flag after the revolution

                                                                                Is Cuba allowed to be socialist even though Spaniard colonial-settlers still live there & genocide happened?

                                                        • WALLTHERICH [comrade/them]
                                                          ·
                                                          3 years ago

                                                          No, you're an anti-vaxxer, which puts you solidly at odds with workers everywhere. Advocating for mass death for the working class is bad, lib.

                • cilantrofellow [any]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  3 years ago

                  70% is only valid as a herd immunity target for diseases that do not reinfect and do not demonstrate an evolutionary rate capable of vaccine escape.

                  I appreciate the nuance Wolff thinks he’s applying but it’s neither the time nor place.

                  Edited as my 70% was vague.

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    Yes it's both the time and the place

                    ~70% is for 12+, for adults it's actually quite a bit higher

                    For the most vulnerable populations the vaccine rate is 85%+

                    • BeanBoy [she/her]
                      ·
                      3 years ago

                      70% rate for the country doesn’t mean everywhere in the country reached 70% which is why we’re getting variants that can break through vaccines

              • volkvulture [none/use name]
                ·
                3 years ago

                Many people are protesting & striking & resigning against mandates

                Better covid protections & higher wages are part and parcel to the larger struggle against being pitted against customers by owners/managers

                • effervescent [they/them]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  Many people are protesting & striking & resigning against mandates

                  There have been dozens of stories about this and they’ve all been debunked as right-wing grift. There’s a lot of money in this narrative right now and you’re literally parroting what amounts to science denial propaganda

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    https://www.forbes.com/sites/masonbissada/2021/11/01/2300-fdny-firefighters-call-in-sick-in-apparent-protest-of-vaccine-mandate/?sh=129a0f336b2f

                    so you're saying 2,000 NY firefighters just called in for some other reason?

                    • effervescent [they/them]
                      ·
                      3 years ago

                      I’m saying that the commissioner has every incentive to call what they’re doing a “strike” and is literally the only source saying so. If you put a bunch of workers on unpaid leave, a lot of them are going to burn their sick time. That’s not a strike. But a strike would be illegal and would let them recall the workers, which is the whole point.

                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
                        ·
                        3 years ago

                        yes, we can call labor action many names, but it's still labor action... within or outside of union strictures

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    https://www.forbes.com/sites/masonbissada/2021/11/01/2300-fdny-firefighters-call-in-sick-in-apparent-protest-of-vaccine-mandate/?sh=129a0f336b2f

                    firefighters

                                • Straight_Depth [they/them]
                                  ·
                                  3 years ago

                                  And they are a microscopic segment of the workforce in a very specific sector, limited to a certain geographic area; the vast, vast majoirty of people on strike right now, from John Deere, to coal miners, to film workers, to Starbuck's baristas, to Amazon warehouse drones are protesting shit working conditions; a couple hundred freedom patriot cops and firefighters dos not speak for the working class.

                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                    ·
                                    3 years ago

                                    https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/business/covid-vaccine-workers-quit/index.html

                                    this says the opposite

                                        • Straight_Depth [they/them]
                                          ·
                                          3 years ago

                                          if their employer mandates vaccines and doesn't offer the testing option

                                          Learn to fucking read

                                          37% of unvaccinated workers say they will quit their jobs if forced to either get vaccinated

                                          37 is less than 72

                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
                                            ·
                                            edit-2
                                            3 years ago

                                            " 72% of the unvaccinated workers say they will quit."

                                            Union reps & labor experts say it's the most complex issue they have had to deal with in ages

                                            "“​​This is one of the most complex problems that unions have faced possibly in my lifetime,” says Susan Schurman, a professor of labor studies and employment relations at the Rutgers University School of Management and Labor Relations. “Because there is so much diversity among their members in terms of how they are thinking about this.”

                                            Tyson Foods (TSN) offered about 120,000 employees additional paid time off if they comply with its new COVID-19 vaccine mandate. A coalition of unions representing roughly 43,000 Disney World (DIS) employees agreed to a mandate with the company, though it excludes workers with a relevant medical condition or religious beliefs. And in Washington, a union working on behalf of 47,000 state employees reached a tentative deal on a vaccine mandate that will afford workers an extra personal day."

        • silent_water [she/her]
          ·
          3 years ago

          yes, which falls mainly on owners & employers and not average mischaracterized Americans

          yes

          Wolff is right here

          no

  • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Everyone knows that the proper way to organize is to focus entirely on divisive wedge issues and burn bridges with anyone who disagrees. Who can forget Marx's famous words - "Workers of the world, divide!"