Conversation immediately goes towards, well they are solving poverty with Concentration Camps (I didn't even bring this ups). Like I do think shady shit is going down in Xinjiang, but Jesus it's China's issue and the US will absolutely not do anything good for the reason. It's funny how we were pointing out how the US never funds good people, but with China it's different. These people even agreed at the time Bolivia was a coup, just China is different. Only thing that calmed them down was saying "Do you think, given our track record, we could actually help China?" They agreed we would fuck things up more.
Let's assume the worst (actual plausible based on what info we do have) scenario re: Xinjiang: there's reeducation centres which thousands of people have been forcibly sent to. The CCP says they're for the purpose of combating islamic extremism, and I don't really have reason to doubt them there. If it were about murder-genociding muslims, they'd be doing something to the Hui muslims too. If it were about murder-genociding Uyghurs, there's more efficient ways to go about it. Plus there's no real motive for that. So the most plausible (bad) scenario re: camps is that they're re-education facilities that Uyghur muslims considered 'at risk' of extremism are forcibly sent to in order to de-radicalise them. This is obviously open to abuse; who decides who's at risk, etc. The camps themselves don't seem to restrict usage of the Uyghur language, but do have mandatory mandarin classes. Assuming that not every single story about the camps is CIA propaganda, there's also evidence that a) phones are allowed in, and b) some people are chained to their beds in small rooms. This is definitely sketchy, and very, very open to abuse, but definitely doesn't seem to be murder-genocide. An argument can be made for this being Han settler colonialism/cultural genocide, as people are being forcibly taught mandarin, and some of the ideas reek of residential schools in Canada (it's for your own good, etc) but doesn't appear to be actual 'kill them all genocide.' People also seem to be released from the camps eventually, albeit under surveillance.
So I want all one person reading this to imagine that a socialist society exists. It can be anarchist or ML, or whatever. Some region of this society begins to experience lots of radical islamic terrorism. Because you're a socialist, you believe that material conditions cause this terrorism, but despite your best efforts, the situation is the region isn't improving fast enough to prevent terrorism. What should the society do?
a) wage war on the terrorists in the country, devastating the entire area
b) respond to terrorist attacks after they've occurred, letting people die. What do you do with terrorists afterwards?
i) imprison them? If it's not for life, they'll continue once they get out. And prisons are historically a very good spreading point for ideas, so you'd put one terrorist in jail, and ten would come out.
ii) kill them? Seems sorta brutal. Also leads to further radicalisation.
iii) re-educate them? The best option in my opinion, because de-radicalisation could lead to them helping de-radicalise others, and also doesn't kill them.
c) find some way to preemptively reeducate those at risk of extremism, to try and prevent terrorism and the symptoms thereof?
I'd pick C honestly. I think that there's no real pure good option here, all of them are sort of open to extreme amounts of abuse, both personal and systemic, but it seems like the least terrible option.
I have stopped trying to argue about the facts on the ground in Xinjiang- I have no way of knowing the truth anyway. My main line of argument when discussing this stuff now is: “look, let’s set aside what is happening there, what the Chinese state is actually up to, even if it’s all true, do you seriously believe the US/the West gives a shit about muslims? They’ve spent the last twenty years imprisoning, torturing, invading, and bombing Islamic people. Isn’t it a little convenient they just started to care about them now that it gives them political capital to use against China?”
I never went there. I just said and backed with Bernie Sanders saying that China has done more than any other country to eliminate poverty and they responded they probably did it with concentration camps. They did admit the US government is in no moral position to critique China on treatments of Muslims.
How do they think poverty can be eliminated with concentration camps? Literally makes zero sense
I have stopped trying to argue about the facts on the ground in Xinjiang- I have no way of knowing the truth anyway.
This is generally my position. The argument doesn't interest me. First of all, there is so much history and so many forces involved in the political economy on our own continent that I couldn't pretend to understand the political economy and history of China. Yes, I have a rough historical outline, but I have faith that the Marxists over there have a much better understanding of the socioeconomic forces at play than some dimwit like myself.
While I hate to watch party dogmatists argue with western idiots, I really have nothing to contribute myself. I'm just trying to come to grips with the material conditions in my own home turf in the meantime.
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of, "there are two sides to every story, and you've only heard one of them." Both-sides the libs in a way they can't object to. I start with, "You've never heard about communism from anyone except an anti-communist," and then I hit them with some Lenin.
This movie scene shows how it is done. I am not a member of NOI but I think that scene gets the point across. Just be honest, assume the best of your audience, and give them the opportunity to decide for themselves. You give them that opportunity by knowing your shit yourself. If you don't know your shit, you have not presented a choice to anyone. This is very basic mass line work. Mastering this technique is required of every one of us.
Like I do think shady shit is going down in Xinjiang
why do you think that
