One thing that stuck out early is how much Star Wars took from it. Very immediately, the desert planet setting, the idea of a chosen one, the emperor, etc but really what got me is that Paul has such a more interesting struggle with evil than Luke does. Paul sees a future where he leads a holy war that kills a whole lot of people, where as Luke just vaguely struggles with the Dark Side, the ends arent really explored, its just the process that matters (Luke is a lib).
Anyways, sick book. Loved it, will read the sequel. Hoping to get more of the 4 year old girl with multiple intelligences, very sick.
The best part of Dune is Paul's struggle with a promised future. He sees it coming, tries desperately to stop it, is driven mad by all the death he knows is coming, and yet despite his best efforts he cannot stop it. You can read that as an allegory for climate change very easily, and I'm surprised I don't see this take more often. The dread is just palpable, and really well done.
Yeah exactly. Dune is a very materialist account of historical development at times, and I find it's an easy way to help people understand historical materialism.
At some point in time all websites have been a Dune discussion forum
Love the whole series, even if Paul's story in the first 3 are definitely the highlight.
But yeah, I thought it was a very insightful look at a lot of things, but particularly a deconstruction of white savior narratives. Like, Paul is pretty much exactly a white savior, but also kind of a villain who knows what he's doing is wrong, not to mention the fact that the Fremen have been manipulated for centuries to have their culture and myths feature a Paul-like figure for the express purpose of using them as a tool.
Favorite quote is, "Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen naib to a creature of the Lisan al-Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessening of the man..."
Just a stark portrayal at the cult of personalities that de facto form behind many of the protagonists in fantasy, yet with a critical eye towards how they are lessened and used as tools.
Its one of those books that changed how I read and consume media, and what details I look for. So many ugly details and ethical lapses that so often get ignored, get the full harsh glare of narrative attention in Dune, and its great for it.
Its good enough that I can overlook Frank Herbert's weird horniness that creeps in at the edges (well, overlook it for the first 4 books. Last 2 definitely get :volcel-judge: )
The next three sequels (Messiah, Children of Dune, and God Emperor) are great. I've heard the rest of the sequels really take a dive in quality so I haven't read them, but God Emperor seems like a good closure to the story to me. Also, re-reading the first two books after reading the rest definitely gives you a different perspective on the struggle with evil that Paul has.
The genetic memory aspect of Dune has always been my favorite part. It makes humanity feel like an untapped reserve of potential.
70s-era Sci-Fi writers are frustrating, because they're generally good enough at writing to present a point in a kind of critical objective lense such that its not immediately clear whether they're hostile to it or sympathetic to it or merely pointing and saying "Look at this! Look at this allegory! Look!"
Like, I see the current movie getting slammed as pro-imperialist, misogynist, and even climate-change denialist. And... like... yes. This is absolutely what both the Atreides and Harkonnan are. But I don't think writing a book about these subjects means you're Pro-These-Subjects.
Then I take a look over at Heinlein and Orson Scott Card and I have to check myself, because these two assholes absolutely did believe in a crazy-ass AnCap society run by the worst people imaginable.
Frank Herbert was an actual honest to god reactionary though.
He was an old rich white anti-government guy. But I'm not seeing much to define him as reactionary, unless simply being in the George Romney wing of the GOP qualifies you.
You might think Snow Crash is a lampoon of libertarians and ancaps until you realize that Neal Stephenson moved in libertarian circles and was just doing a fun thought experiment.
I think the best thinkers do actually game their theories out a few steps, rather than doing Ayn Rand's Utopianism and then blaming everyone else for failing their vision. But, again, I think you might be confusing a Futurist high on his own farts for someone with genuinely terrible politics.
I dunno dude, if being a massive homophobe to the point where you won't let your estranged gay son go to his mom's deathbed, and writing speeches for the republican party doesn't make you a reactionary, I'm not sure what the fuck does lmao
guy born in 1920 not down with gay people? I am shocked i say, shocked. canceled.
But it's not reactionary philosophy like Ayn Rand. It's a character doing a bad but necessary thing that Herbert doesn't explicitly endorse.
Considering he pretty much quoted verbatim the same weird homophobic shit in GEoD at a public speaking event,
I'm gonna have to put :doubt: on him not endorsing at least a good chunk of the worm dude's views (who is portrayed as totally right and doing everything for the greater good and totally isnt a self insert)
I meant within the internal confines of the plot. Ugh yeah I guess I'm wrong.
"This planet would be an Eden if any of its rulers would look past the spice"
He was cool. RIP.
Honestly the cooler liet stuff comes posthumous in later books when
spoiler
You find out about the goals of fremen ecological engineering project
Oh definitely. But I think it is implied that he had his hands in that from the start.
Definitely read the sequel -- it really adds to the contrast between Paul and your standard sci-fi protagonist. The effort that went into building the world of Dune is something that has stuck with me through all of my writing. The civilization presented is completely different from our own, but all of those differences have a reason for existing within their own universe, and nothing felt like it was added just because it sounded cool. IMO this is the biggest reason Dune has remained popular so long after its release.
Paul is so cool, Im sure hed never do anything bad or wrong... right???
:side-eye-1:
Dune: Messiah spoiler
He says he's literally worse than Genghis Khan and Hitler
Absolutely, I almost think that Dune and Dune Messiah should be packaged as one book.
So I came away from the first book with the thought that a whole bunch of the people who were supposed to be the "masters of the universe" were really not smart.
Dug the environmentalist angle and what felt like Paul's being able to get a sense of the future but not wanting to get so "tunnel visioned" about it that you stopped trying to move forward.
Genetic memory thing was pretty cool and the Bene Jesserit (sp?) witches were kinda neat. Liked how the witchcraft was less "magic" and more genetically hacking humanity to be more docile and easily influenced/controlled through a centuries/millenniums long breeding program.
The last of the series of books where its doing a "Star Wars prequels that explain every little thing" is where I lost interest enough that I couldn't keep reading.
I read dune back when I was a kid and didn't get any of the nuance. Swords are cool though.
“No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero.”
I finished it yesterday, fantastic book
fuck yeah. What a cool line.
I feel like Dunes reputation as "hard to read" is really overstated, it constantly has lines like this that just get me to keep going. I didnt want to put it down.
Hoping to get more of the 4 year old girl with multiple intelligences, very sick.
Buddy, you will get more of her, and then some.
Ooh from what I’ve heard prepare to be disappointed by the rest of the books
It's best to form your own impression. There's consensus around the first book, but after that it seems like opinions vary wildly. Like I love Massiah and like God Emperor, but there are others that hate them.
Heretics and Chapterhouse are the most mixed because things get weird and horny, but those are at the end.
Yeah you may end up liking them, if not none really end on cliffhangers. So it's easy to stop and be satisfied, it's why I don't really feel a desire to read the ones by Herbert's son. Chapterhouse's end is kind of open, but I like that.
Yeah I think that’s a huge strength of the first book that it stands on its own, good to hear the rest are kinda like that. It’s amazing how uncommon that is now.
