You prove unequivocally that you're not doing the really bad thing it kinda looks like you might be doing. Like 90% of discourse around the camps is 'we don't really know what's happening' hahaha
You prove unequivocally that you’re not doing the really bad thing it kinda looks like you might be doing.
I mean like, they have. Everyone's ignored it. Also if I say, hey Gorn is murdering people and hiding their bodies in a secret place, HOW DO YOU PROVE THAT
I'd show you the secret place until people were more or less all confident that it's chill. I guess they're probably been doing this, but the people they let in keep condeming it? And I'm actually fully open to the possibility that they're only doing so for ideological reasons.
Also, I really don't want either of us to feel like 'ah hah! they give up! I won!' or 'but I can't let them have the last word!' but, for reasons entirely unrelated to the content of this conversation, I'm moving away from this conversation for now haha I hope that's cool. I'm sorry if this was a little heated, and I consider you a good comrade o7
Alright, cool, thanks for that. I’m very, very conflict averse haha and I was getting a little too heated in another thread with another comrade, so I’m stepping back
I totally see what you’re saying though, fwiw. I just wish we had some really, really clear evidence or something that could put it all to rest but... I guess that’s not exactly the nature of international politics under global capitalism hahaha shakes red fist :red-fist:
I’ll prolly remain skeptical for now. But continue to do my best self-educating and tossing aside any unfounded beliefs I find I hold! :af-heart:
I'm too skeptical to portion out my skepticism toward one superpower based on how skeptical I am of another hahaha, I'm just skeptical of power. All of it. But I hear you, and trust me... I despise the usa haha, it's more than just skepticism, which I'll freely admit. I'm not from the usa or China, so to me they're both just global superpowers except China's a lot more functional and probably better in most ways. And also the usa has tended to be imperialist, including against China obviously. China much, much less so. But China's also probably not 'better' in absolutely every dimension? idk
When I think of China I legit don't think of it in terms of the usa/compared to the usa. I sometimes wish that the usa didn't have to be a part of the conversation when talking about other countries, tbh
I'm also not trying to, like, universally condemn China when I talk about the camps, by any means. Like they still do things like health care, climate change mitigation, pandemic response apparently, and incarceration rates waaay better than the usa. Which I guess I should say if I'm criticizing something as controversial as the camps. I'm just... not convinced these camps are all they're cracked up to be hahaha my country has a long history of interning ethnic groups in camps for various reasons, and I think I just have a hard time accepting 'maybe this time the camps aren't so bad, actually' hahaha 🤷♂️
What exactly about this situation is unique compared to the dozens of other times the West has attempted to discredit them? There's literally like two or three sources on this that are pumping out lies and you can see them easily every time.
My dude, Xinjiang is fully open to visitors, just so you know. Plenty of people go there, and leave there.
Jerry's China has some stuff on this topic. He's an old white westerner, which helps remove some 'bias'. He also has a twitter account where he documents himself cycling across China: https://nitter.net/Jerry_grey2002
Here's a full interview with him by a VERY western-biased interviewer: https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=L9AyqT6RC4E
China has invited all sorts of ambassadors and diplomats to come have a look at what they're doing in Xinjiang, so they're not hiding anything.
The US has warned a UN ambassador from visiting and taking a look for himself, because it will run counter to US interests. Seriously. https://www.ft.com/content/edfc99a2-8eff-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972
I hope some of that was useful, and I'm not trying to attack you.
Fwiw, I don’t trust old white people as sources more or less than other people haha. Thanks for not being attacky. I’ll check these out when I have time later. I didn’t realize just anyone could visit the camps any time, I’m amazed there’s so much controversy if that’s the case. Unless you’re referring to the region more generally? I’ll find out when I watch these hah
I mean, I know that just as much as you do. I just have a different interpretation, I suppose. Nothing wrong with that.
I mean, how do you prove something you're not doing?
You prove unequivocally that you're not doing the really bad thing it kinda looks like you might be doing. Like 90% of discourse around the camps is 'we don't really know what's happening' hahaha
I mean like, they have. Everyone's ignored it. Also if I say, hey Gorn is murdering people and hiding their bodies in a secret place, HOW DO YOU PROVE THAT
I'd show you the secret place until people were more or less all confident that it's chill. I guess they're probably been doing this, but the people they let in keep condeming it? And I'm actually fully open to the possibility that they're only doing so for ideological reasons.
Also, I really don't want either of us to feel like 'ah hah! they give up! I won!' or 'but I can't let them have the last word!' but, for reasons entirely unrelated to the content of this conversation, I'm moving away from this conversation for now haha I hope that's cool. I'm sorry if this was a little heated, and I consider you a good comrade o7
So then I'd say well, he's lying about the secret place! It's a treadmill that no one wins, basically. It's hard to disprove.
It's okay, I'm honestly not heated at all. I know you mean well, and you are skeptical, but you aren't contemptuous.
Alright, cool, thanks for that. I’m very, very conflict averse haha and I was getting a little too heated in another thread with another comrade, so I’m stepping back
I totally see what you’re saying though, fwiw. I just wish we had some really, really clear evidence or something that could put it all to rest but... I guess that’s not exactly the nature of international politics under global capitalism hahaha shakes red fist :red-fist:
I’ll prolly remain skeptical for now. But continue to do my best self-educating and tossing aside any unfounded beliefs I find I hold! :af-heart:
I just think we're probably not going to get anything like that. I'd just ask if you remain skeptical, be double skeptical about whatever the US does!
I'm too skeptical to portion out my skepticism toward one superpower based on how skeptical I am of another hahaha, I'm just skeptical of power. All of it. But I hear you, and trust me... I despise the usa haha, it's more than just skepticism, which I'll freely admit. I'm not from the usa or China, so to me they're both just global superpowers except China's a lot more functional and probably better in most ways. And also the usa has tended to be imperialist, including against China obviously. China much, much less so. But China's also probably not 'better' in absolutely every dimension? idk
When I think of China I legit don't think of it in terms of the usa/compared to the usa. I sometimes wish that the usa didn't have to be a part of the conversation when talking about other countries, tbh
I'm also not trying to, like, universally condemn China when I talk about the camps, by any means. Like they still do things like health care, climate change mitigation, pandemic response apparently, and incarceration rates waaay better than the usa. Which I guess I should say if I'm criticizing something as controversial as the camps. I'm just... not convinced these camps are all they're cracked up to be hahaha my country has a long history of interning ethnic groups in camps for various reasons, and I think I just have a hard time accepting 'maybe this time the camps aren't so bad, actually' hahaha 🤷♂️
What exactly about this situation is unique compared to the dozens of other times the West has attempted to discredit them? There's literally like two or three sources on this that are pumping out lies and you can see them easily every time.
My dude, Xinjiang is fully open to visitors, just so you know. Plenty of people go there, and leave there.
Jerry's China has some stuff on this topic. He's an old white westerner, which helps remove some 'bias'. He also has a twitter account where he documents himself cycling across China: https://nitter.net/Jerry_grey2002 Here's a full interview with him by a VERY western-biased interviewer: https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=L9AyqT6RC4E
China has invited all sorts of ambassadors and diplomats to come have a look at what they're doing in Xinjiang, so they're not hiding anything.
The US has warned a UN ambassador from visiting and taking a look for himself, because it will run counter to US interests. Seriously. https://www.ft.com/content/edfc99a2-8eff-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972
I hope some of that was useful, and I'm not trying to attack you.
Fwiw, I don’t trust old white people as sources more or less than other people haha. Thanks for not being attacky. I’ll check these out when I have time later. I didn’t realize just anyone could visit the camps any time, I’m amazed there’s so much controversy if that’s the case. Unless you’re referring to the region more generally? I’ll find out when I watch these hah
hey your interpretation seems lo line up more with the CIA narrative than the social and material reality.. haha kinda weird lol