I don't even support a 100% gun ban or anything, I just think this behavior is tasteless asf.
Edit: Get mad and tone police me all you want gunbros, I stand by this.
well the important thing is youve found a way to feel superior to all of them
You’re criticizing them criticize them. And I’m criticizing you criticize them criticize them.
it definitely isnt fascists causing problems :very-smart: nope its just guns and random people shooting things. pure, unadulterated idealism
To indulge in personal attacks, pick quarrels, vent personal spite or seek revenge instead of entering into an argument and struggling against incorrect views for the sake of unity or progress or getting the work done properly. This is a fifth type [of liberalism].
To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type [of liberalism].
Only Americans have this weird gun obsession, no where else in the entire planet is like this. No other country has anywhere near the level of US gun ownership.
Me failing to say this would be liberalism, because I believe Americans, even leftists, are incorrect on this, so I have to rebutt it.
:PIGPOOPBALLS:! At least we have something in common.
:PIGPOOPBALLS: unites us
:PIGPOOPBALLS: is the true meme of leftist unity.
youre the one coming in here with a month old account and posting sectarian nonsense, not me
Cuz saying pro-gun people should try to have a bare minimum of tact after a bunch of kids get murdered is splitting the party apparently. lol
saying you should blame fascists for doing fascist things like killing kids has nothing to do with tact, it is factual. spreading liberal propaganda that has insofar done nothing to address the issue despite 30+ years of its propagation is in fact sectarianism. stopping the spread of fascism is the only way to solve this issue.
My post is literally: "Hey guys, maybe you can wait a day before malding about hypothetical scenarios where your guns are taken away (Which likely will not happen) after 2 dozen kids were brutally gunned down."
Where exactly am I absolving fascists of violence?
im glad youve found a nook to feel better than everyone while being useless. i salute a liberal king for attacking leftists when you should be spending this time to attack fascists :rat-salute:
I ask you again: Where am I absolving fascists of violence? Sounds like you're just mad I don't agree with you.
No you were not wrong. This post is about how reaction capitalizes tragedies in order to seize more power, yet OP equivocates this with fascists who declare such shootings are completely fabricated in order to control firearms.
If you read the edit it'll be very clear what the post is about and it's got nothing to do with the misleading meme OP posted
“Omg go off king :)” but seriously, your priority is criticizing gun-owning leftists in this situation? Telling.
Yes, how dare I suggest that a gut reaction to a school shooting being "MY GUNS!!!" is a bit tasteless.
That post is implying that reactionary forces will inevitably use this tragedy as leverage — something they’ve done with all past US tragedies. Equivocating this to the fascists’ reactions to shootings (a la alex jones or tucker) is naive at best, subversive (to the left) at worst.
Fr tho: I wasn't trying to "bait" a struggle sesh of any real significance. The news just made me mad, that meme (And the number of upvotes) rubbed me the wrong way, so I made this in response.
Kids being killed by a fascist is a super shitty situation, and far too common of an occurrence in this goddamned country. We all agree on these points.
The other meme's validity arises because the knee-jeek liberal response will be a push for anti-firearm legislation. Biden and others called for it within minutes.
Unfortunately, all successfully passed American gun control legislation has been racist in foundation or has put unequal burdens on the poor. We on the left must be vigilant to prevent these same reactions in ourselves lest we become complicit in further discriminatory efforts.
I understand. I am angry today as well. I just suggest directing that anger to more appropriate outlets, such as the fascists and liberals (fascists) who are responsible for the carnage. Not that that’ll do anything.
Sorry for being a debate-bro-ish technicality dork but her "gut reaction" first response to the shooting itself was
God damn America :amerikkka-clap:
https://hexbear.net/post/196408/comment/2469175
Those same gun control laws were later used to justify the brutal murder of Rodney King.
This is a minor point, but I just want to mention it in case folks copy and paste this very awesome comment you made: Rodney King was brutally assaulted by the LAPD in 1991, but he survived. He died about 20 years later in a drowning incident.
You're debatebroing your way around the essence of their point, which is that gun control in amerikkka is fucking racist.
Yes, enacting policies in reaction to unfortunate events is literally reactionary.
yes in order to solve this fortunate event let's further entrench the monopoly on violence claimed by our dictatorship of the bourgeousie and their class traitor pigs. that surely will solve this problem and protect further innocent lives from being lost, particularly at the hand of organized fascists.
yeah libertarians are so concerned with the dictatorship of the bougeousie
you sound like OP's alt that got logged into after 3 months of downtime
While the government exists in service of capitalism, that's basically true. We can hope to grow the government in terms of social services because that increases socialization/nationalization of things currently owned by the private sector; increasing government responsibility, not government power. Freely giving power to a government in service of capital seems counterproductive.
Yeah and a tragedy is a type of Greek play; debatebro garbage has no place in actual leftist discussion.
Look, the facts speak for themselves. All gun control legislation passed by this country has been racist or discriminatory in nature. Any legislation going forward is likely to be as well as long as capitalism remains the dominant mode of production.
The problem is that the United States is materially & institutionally constituted such that any such legislation that could've actually stopped this is probably neither passable, actionable, or effective.
Need I remind you that it is literally a core part of our Constitution (a thing you cannot change without a congressional super-majority, and which ostensibly overrules all other enacted laws) that says that you cannot federally ban gun-ownership.
Beyond that; in what world is US Law enforcement going to enforce those laws against Neo-Fascists? Maybe in the entirely hypothetical world in which you could democratically remove the 2nd Amendment, that could happen.
Do we live in that world?
If gun control was being paired with a ruthless de-militarization of police and sheriffs' departments that would be one thing. But this is the dems we're talking about. :good-morning:
If the first thing out of your mouth is "muh gunz" that's fucked
But the first thing out of a lot of folks' mouths is "guns are the problem here" and I don't think there's some cooldown period to responding to that
This is very much a statement I agree with. Biden responded within minutes "When are we going to stand up to the gun lobby?" We all know the knee-jeek feel-good bills and thoughts and prayers are coming. There should not be a cool down on being angry that political power is being threatened due to the actions of a fascist.
IDK, I think Boxy just genuinely feels bad, and wants a solution that will make people stop getting hurt. I mean, it's reasonable, and even I don't feel good about arguing some of the things I do here some times. But unfortunately we don't actually get to choose the reality we live in. We can try & build it into something different; but that requires position, effort, and time; and right now we've only got the chance to make use of one of those & it's not either of the "easy" ones.
Americans just have the most :brainworms: on guns. Every AES state has gun control, but nooo American leftists have figured it out everyone! The slave owners USA constitution, that included gun ownership in an amendment as a way to do settler colonialism, own slaves, and enforce private property rules, that amendment is actually what Marx meant when he wrote about not disarming the workers! All AES is wrong and American leftists are right, don't you know?
Every AES state has gun control
Marx's point about arming the workers doesn't apply in an AES state, where presumably the military is the workers. But in a non-AES state, where the military is there to defend the bourgeoisie, the situation is different.
And the plan is to go to war against the US military using legally obtained weapons? That's some incredible strategy right there. What revolution ever had legally obtained firearms as the crux of their fight? I'm pretty sure most revolutionaries obtained guns and more without asking the state if it's legal.
If armed leftists ever pose a threat to the US government, gun control will immediately come into play and chuds will cheer along as it keeps the "commies away from guns". See what happened to the Black Panthers, they got Reagan of all people to pass gun control. No one is overthrowing the state with legally obtained weapons, the state is not going to sell you the tools to dismantle it.
Pointing out that gun control has historically been used as a weapon against the left while advocating for gun control is a confusing tactic.
I think we both agree that there's way the fuck too many guns in this broken country? That's an idea that I can get behind; but if the fascists won't give theirs up willingly, neither will I.
I mean that's the crux of the problem, it's basically like MAD but on a much smaller scale. Obviously you don't want to give up your guns, because that puts you at a disadvantage to the fash.
The obvious solution is for the left to seize state power and confiscate the chuds guns, but that seems so far away to most.
Well, yeah, :fash-bash: and--wait, do we really not have a :guillotine:--are the solution to just about every problem this country has.
It's more about protecting ourselves when the fash get even more riled up.
I mean in the last two mass shootings people have shot at the gunmen, but they were wearing body armour so they just continued...
Honestly if some fash comes at you in their terminator body armour suit, there's not much you can do, try shoot them in the crotch, or the "Mozambique method" (double tap centre mass + headshot) I guess? Honestly the force difference between some fash with a long gun and body armour vs even someone carrying a pistol for self defence is huge.
You can buy an NFA destructive device if you have money and can pass the background check. Maybe not against a terminator suit, but a grenade will fuck up somebody in a plate carrier and a rampage shooter was going to kill those bystanders anyway.
Having to pay a $200 tax stamp to legally craft a Molotov cocktail is upsetting
Yeah, I agree on all points. What is your practical plan to confront that? Do you believe that directly confronting in isn't possible? If the latter is the case how exactly would you ever be able to stop it politically?
I'm a non American that doesn't have a gun, but the same way as with any violent situation I guess. Run away, then hide, then only fight if I have no other choice. Avoid confrontation as far as possible.
Honestly if some fash gets the drop on you, there's really not much you can do, that's life, it can be really, really, really shit at times.
Stopping it politically requires using state power to re educate Nazi incels and reintegrate them into society, along with removing all their political power, the American state is unwilling to that at the moment.
You could start with the most basic stuff like criminalising hate speech, but we all know that Amerikkka would fuck that up and only target "anti white" racists or whatever the fuck.
I am American, and I am one who knows the history of "my" country, the blood upon which it was founded , and upon which it has sustained itself.
What I know is that while you may well be right that a country that does not have the same degree of an armed populace would not be witness to anywhere near the reactionary violence we see in the United States, you would only ever possibly be able to enforce that state of affairs by overcoming the force that they already & have always had possession of.
What is going on today is not new for America; we are simply returning to our own normal. And we as leftists in America need to be prepared for that.
Edit: Wrote this before your edit.
Well for me the plan is to not get hate crimed to death, since I'm very visibly queer and GNC in a rural area that skews reactionary and religious and all of those people are armed to the teeth
remember there's no such legal thing as a warning shot, if you gotta shoot you gotta shoot to kill
So you want to ban guns, while assuming that the people who want guns will be able to obtain them illegally anyway. Do you think that banning guns will effectively deter mass shootings, or is it a strictly aesthetic position?
No it's because I'm not American and think the rate of gun ownership in America is unsustainable for anything resembling a stable society long term.
120 guns per 100 people in the USA. How is that supposed to work on any level. It just cannot. And despite all the guns, no revolution. It's almost as if gun ownership in the US is intended to maintain the status quo.
Gun ownership is a form of virtue signaling here. The chuds have been doing it for ages, and after Trump became president the resistance libs started doing it too. It's a completely ridiculous status quo that only exists because it enriches Smith & Wesson, i agree.
I just think as the US further enters the cool zone ™, the massive amount of guns everywhere is going to lead to unimaginable amounts of violence. Look at the gun involved homicide rate in very unequal and unstable global south countries. Now imagine how bad that would be with the US amount of guns? Once material conditions start going, it doesn't look great.
i think rampage shooters acquire their weapons under a variety of circumstances and the preventive effects of any policy would be contingent on the details of that policy and how the weapons were obtained.
this kid bought his guns, shittenhouse did a straw purchase: age-restricting the purchase of firearms would do something but not everything.
Well, most revolutions haven't occured in a capitalist system with a wildly overgrown military industrial complex. While the quote may be inaccurately attributed, the idea that capitalists will sell us the rope we use to hang them is sound.
If anything resembling a revolution happens in the former US, it won't be because of a military triumph over the police or military or w/e. It'll be because they get spread too thin to react to all the different uprisings happening.
Like as much as people glorify the violent side of revolution, a lot of revolution is just going into buildings and farms and stuff and taking them over because the same thing is happening all over the state at all hours of the day and hey, they can't stop everyone.
It does make me wonder what a socialist group could take over in the US though, now that we're completely privatized and de-industrialized. There's not a lot of factories left. Banks? Post offices? Amazon fulfillment centers?
AES also have cops, but the nature of cops is different under their (also distinct from one another) conditions when compared to cops in the United States.
Which is to say, an analysis of guns should consider who has them, how they will exert power through them, and most importantly, with whose interests will they align?
Under no pretext :gun-unity: Shall not be infringed
Shit arises from material conditions, only a part of which is an abundance of guns.
Cool, just saying people can wait, like, 24 hours before posting about MUH GURNZ after a class of kids gets murdered.
Nothing happened after Sandy Hook a decade ago, and nothing will happen after this, especially not in fuckin' Texas. No one is coming for anyone's peashooters.
Yeah...if anything, it seems like Abbott will use this as an excuse to push some insane legislation like forcing teachers to be armed or mandating 10 cops per school or some garbage.
I thought it went without saying that Joe Biden and Prez Manchin wouldn't permit significant change (and even if they tried, the courts are so chud it wouldn't matter).
I figured that Abbott went out of his way to name-drop a Latino kid to rile up the "build the wall" crowd in addition to that arm-the-teachers bullshit that the NRA was pushing back in 2017-2018.
:doomer:
I just logged on to read some shitposts and drink a beer, what the hell is all of this lib shit?
I think you don't understand what leftist gun owners are saying if this is your interpretation of comments on here. I've been corrected on very short sighted reactionary gun control positions before. It does nothing but ultimately leave marginalized people with less ability to defend themselves. No one on here has been insensitive to the death of so many children
I regret jumping in immediately in defense of guns instead of jumping in and calling this a lib meme for only having one sentence of text.
:downbear:
this is weak :bait: and I'll be glad when you're banned. go post on reddit I hear those enlightened centrists love muh bothsides memes like this.
this is too milquetoast lib a take for stupidpol tbh
stupidpol's more like...the libs wanna take your guns and that's why we need to support our comrades the proud boys as they fight against the dictatorship of the bourgeosie as they try to take away our guns
this feels more like a lib that needs to lurk more instead of stir shit. I know I would've posted some obnoxious shit like this on the sub a few years back
Boxy has been around and active a bit and most of his posts have been pretty good. I think this is just some lib brainworms that need to be bullied out.
Struggle sessions are a thing for a reason. If he fails to take this opportunity to self-crit, that is problematic.
The "bullying" isn't really changing my mind, and I think that's typically how it goes tbh. Internet arguments rarely change anyone's opinion in my experience.
Oh well, shit happens.
No, not really. Bullying does work I've seen it happen before and it's worked on me before. If you don't use leftists pushing back on you so strongly as a moment of reflection, then that's a you problem
I won't actually. I might still be outnumbered by pro-gun people here, but the upvotes my post has received tells me I'm very much not alone in feeling this way either.
I'll agree to disagree with the people who feel differently than me, and move on, cuz ultimately this is all just a meaningless internet argument.
the upvotes my post has received tells me I’m very much not alone in feeling this way either.
:corn-man-khrush:
I need this to be one of the random headers for main. I keep coming back to read it and it makes me laugh every time.
Upvotes on the site are pretty meaningless and aren't really indicative of anything. It's more telling that no one is backing you up on this.
There are some other people from what I can see, and I wouldn't be surprised if others are choosing to lurk cuz they don't wanna get dogpiled lol.
ngl I've been suspicious it's either that or a whole host of folks with lib gun control :brainworms:
they should do a seance with reagan and ask him about how he killed the last vestige of the BPP
you should make more alts, you're at < 1:2 upvotes to comments
gun control in amerikkka is racist. full stop.
your enlightened centrist shitpost tacitly advocating for gun control in amerikkka is racist. full stop.
But, again, do not take this response to mean that any of us did not mourn the children (or at least, as in my case, feel like absolute garbage that their capacity to mourn anything has been entirely depleted). The gut reaction is not "muh gunz". The gut reaction is "god damn America".
Unfortunately, we have to instantly switch to stamping out reactionary politics. This is not a reaction to the godawful news, it is a defense against reaction and reactionaries.
Exactly. Though I think mourning some people you have no connection to is some immaterial thoughts-and-prayers bullshit. The effective reaction to prevent gun violence from happening in your community is to be vigilant against the pigs cynically using this event to fundraise, which should be the real target of any critique of anyone's reaction to events like this.
Anyone who assumes anything less of us here needs to lurk more. We're not fucking soulless here.
