They are an authoratarian Socialist state right now. Have you heard their new National Anthem? It has the Fascist mantra of we were once great and we can be great again. It seems obvious to me that they are a Proto-Fascist State.
China was subjugated by the great western powers for over a century, through no fault of their own: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation. The Germans started and lost a war and were humiliated for about 15 years before the Nazis showed up. The twentieth century in China is mostly defined by the struggle for national liberation.
The beginning of the end of Chinese humiliation was the Xinhai revolution in 1911. The CPC and KMT were both children of this national bourgeois revolution against the Qing and both wanted to reverse this humiliation and return China to its rightful role as an independent and important state. The difference between the two visions of China held by the successors of Sun Yat-Sen lead to a civil war in which the communist vision ultimately prevailed. The state-buliding project started by Sun Yat-Sen was continued by the CPC, and has been fruitful despite numerous setbacks and mistakes. While there are good criticisms of the CPC's actions they have ultimately resulted in a great increase in the standard of living for the Chinese people. The Chinese people recognize that whatever its faults, shortcomings and excesses the CPC has helped return their country to its rightful place in the world and created a more prosperous and stable society.
It has the Fascist mantra of we were once great and we can be great again.
Except in China's case it wasn't some imagined national decline it was hell on earth. Civil wars and famines killing millions, infrastructure collapsing, seemingly half the population addicted to opium, and the country divided between warlords and foreign invaders.
A single line in a national anthem is hardly reason to call the entire country fascist. I really don't see how they can be "authoritarian" when its citizens have one of the highest perceptions of its democracy of any country. Take a look at this study. This is a western study by a German polling firm. 73% of Chinese citizens consider their country a democracy. That's 20-30% higher than most Western countries, excluding Scandinavian ones. Everything in that poll affirms that China is one of the most democratic countries in the world. Certainly more than the US, where the president literally got 3 million less votes than his opponent and mass voter suppression is the norm.
Globally, China replacing the US is great for democracy, as well: the US's foreign policy consists mostly of coups and regime changes. When those don't work, you get an Iraq War. China, on the other hand, doesn't coup or overthrow multiple foreign governments every year.
There have been multiple threads and comments in this lemmy, as well as other communist subs that have gone in-depth into the first two, as they are most emphasised by the media, so I'll give the "brief" overview of their refutations.
The situation in Xinjiang is an issue of counter-terrorism. That is not to say that all Uyghurs are terrorists, rather that, due to Xinjiang's proximity to US-destabilised regions, there has been a higher chance of extremist ideology in the area, which has affected some Uyghurs. The evidence of this are reports (that surfaced before the camp allegations arose) of Uyghur militias being trained in Syria, and multiple attacks that include stabbings, car rammings, etc, with casualties in the hundreds. So the response of the government is to open camps, or vocational schools, to provide work training for those who may have been influenced by extremist thought. Note that this is not a blanket repression of Uyghurs or their culture. Evidence of this is abundant. It's just not reported on. Please note that this is not a blanket repression of Muslims either - China has other Muslim minorities, like the Hui, that are completely fine, and if i remember correctly, China have more mosques per capita than the US.
A sidenote that I also find interesting that is usually looked over: Xinjiang contains 20% of China's fossil fuel reserves, has the capacity to produce 10% of China's renewable energy, and serves as an essential gateway to the BRI, a project that has the potential to shift global trade and power dynamics further to Asia. I wonder why the US and the media is so interested in Xinjiang?
With regard to Hong Kong, those colonial apologists got off easy. What happened with Hong Kong was essentially an attempted colour revolution, funded by US money. You really cannot say that China is a proto-fascist state, by 1) trying to have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, which is technically Chinese territory, and already has such extradition treaties with the likes of the US and the UK, and 2) trying to, y'know, not have a successful separatist movement in a key financial hub, and 3) not actually being responsible for the deaths of anyone in Hong Kong, despite the riots going for over a year. With regard to the national security law, it literally is a law that prohibits sedition or rebellion, a law that exists everywhere else in the world. The max sentence for breaking this law is life imprisonment. As opposed to the benevolent US or Japan, where it is the death penalty. More can be said, so I defer to the other megathreads and source compilations.
The Great Firewall is actually pretty good, ngl. Ideally ofc, censorship shouldn't occur at all, but given China's main geopolitical and ideological rival has a virtual monopoly on information, I understand why it exists. It helps filter out the bullshit propaganda that we get fed here in the West, and helps develop Chinese internet services, like Weibo, to rival US ones, like Facebook. Additionally, you can bypass it pretty easily. Just get a VPN. Chinese citizens know this, and those who are bothered enough, mainly the younger generations, will get one. I have heard that the analogy that the crime of using a VPN to bypass the Firewall is like the crime of jaywalking - pretty much accepted.
This was an excellent read, thank you so much for putting this together. I've been looking for a good summary to show people of why what we're told about china is wrong.
I love this narrative, the US has been torturing Uyghur muslims from Afghanistan which is neighbouring Xinjiang (and muslims from many other countries) for ages now, but all of a sudden the US loves muslims, and is very concerned about their safety. Also Hong Kong was an obvious US funded color revolution, crawling with CIA assets, US senators advising protestors and had the sole goal of getting the US congress to vote for placing sanctions on Hong Kong. The new security law is an inevitable result of the trump administration overplaying it's hand.
A perspective from an american living in china, deals with a lot of the propaganda, and especially Hong Kong's security law:
That's a cop out. We live in the imperial core, in countries with the most propagandised people in the world, a news media that is completely beholden to western security apparatus, use your critical thinking skill to investigate why western narratives have turned incredibly anti china as the US empire collapses and western capital loses its ability to wage war and coup any country they want.
Right but the point is that "talking about China" from the perspective of the imperial core lends you facts given to you by empire. How can you "talk about China" when you've already been spoonfed a bunch of nonsense about HK, etc?
I had a really long response typed out, but this website glitched and scrolled up to the top and deleted my whole comment. Basically, I don't think that particular study is relevant to this. That study only shows that their Citizens feel like they have a choice.
Something like 86% of US police say that US Law Enforcement is racist. Does that mean it's not racist?
As to that comparison, it's so outrageous I'm not even sure what to say. How do cops saying cops are good refute the experience of Chinese citizens? If your claim is they are authoritarian fascists, it seems like the belief among Chinese citizens that they live in a fair democracy is extremely relevant.
But how? You haven't explained how besides a single line in a national anthem. Again, the people of China clearly disagree with you. Not the government - the everyday citizens. They think they live in a democracy. They think their government acts in the best interests of the people. They think the government has made their lives materially better. Do you know better than they do?
That study shows it in a number of ways. You should read through. Here's another that takes a long term view and shows not just high approval but growing approval.
I will say, I feel less uneasy now about China as the World's superpower. I still don't like the idea. Having two superpowers compete to see who can go farther to the left just seems like a sweeter deal.
Chapos should just create Outer Heaven and become the superpower instead.
I wish, but I'm putting my money on that not happening, at least not with all its current institutions intact. Refer to the history of entire 20th century. If anything, having a rival superpower makes the US more and more insanely right-wing. I mean, you can already see this in action today.
Oh I definitely don't agree with that. The only reason that the various reforms of the 40s, 50s, and 60s happened in the US were because of the threat of the USSR.
Domestically, yeah sure. Communists and other liberatory movements, as well as the shadow of the USSR, certainly forced the hand of the US to give concessions and reforms. However, the more important and insidious part to consider is its foreign policy - it was in competition with the USSR and socialism that the US committed genocide, bio-chemical warfare and other war crimes in Vietnam, Laos., Cambodia, or Korea. It was to counter the USSR and socialism that the US funded death squads in Iran, the Caribbean, Central and South America to torture and kill villages of innocents, or to continue to support the Apartheid regime, even after the Civil Rights Movement was successful in the US.
I have no reason to believe that the US won't be more or less the same in competition with China.
It's important to remember that our perceptions of people's views, that we usually get from social media, do not represent the entirety of the nation, but rather, clusters of people. I would say that, as a consequence of the BLM protests, although more people are coming to support more socially left views (The opposite is also true), the consensus on economic policy is roughly unchanged. Sure, most people want Bernie's platform, but most people don't want a radical reconstitution of the economy. Yes, the American left is starting, to some degree, find it's feet again, but it's hampered by decades of propaganda and ideology.
Let's also assume that the majority of Americans are economically left, a situation that I desperately wish for. This scientific study shows that normal people have virtually no say in policy outcomes:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
This is a summary from a lib source, but I recommend going through the actual study:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oligarchy
In summary, even if the majority of US citizens are left, if they work within the confines of their system, nothing will change. Brown people will still be blown up in places halfway across the world, children will still mine for coltan in war-ravaged Africa.
At least we can say that of all western countries it is the one where the condition seem pretty ripe for a revolutionary moment. I just fear that in that case the US will slip into some fascist dictatorship instead of a revolution being successful.
But one can hope for things going right for once. Inshallah.
In what way is China fascist?
They are an authoratarian Socialist state right now. Have you heard their new National Anthem? It has the Fascist mantra of we were once great and we can be great again. It seems obvious to me that they are a Proto-Fascist State.
China is fascist because checks notes they have a national anthem about the Chinese people's resistance to Japanese invasion.
EDIT: did you also do a horseshoe theory wtf
China was subjugated by the great western powers for over a century, through no fault of their own: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation. The Germans started and lost a war and were humiliated for about 15 years before the Nazis showed up. The twentieth century in China is mostly defined by the struggle for national liberation.
The beginning of the end of Chinese humiliation was the Xinhai revolution in 1911. The CPC and KMT were both children of this national bourgeois revolution against the Qing and both wanted to reverse this humiliation and return China to its rightful role as an independent and important state. The difference between the two visions of China held by the successors of Sun Yat-Sen lead to a civil war in which the communist vision ultimately prevailed. The state-buliding project started by Sun Yat-Sen was continued by the CPC, and has been fruitful despite numerous setbacks and mistakes. While there are good criticisms of the CPC's actions they have ultimately resulted in a great increase in the standard of living for the Chinese people. The Chinese people recognize that whatever its faults, shortcomings and excesses the CPC has helped return their country to its rightful place in the world and created a more prosperous and stable society.
Except in China's case it wasn't some imagined national decline it was hell on earth. Civil wars and famines killing millions, infrastructure collapsing, seemingly half the population addicted to opium, and the country divided between warlords and foreign invaders.
A single line in a national anthem is hardly reason to call the entire country fascist. I really don't see how they can be "authoritarian" when its citizens have one of the highest perceptions of its democracy of any country. Take a look at this study. This is a western study by a German polling firm. 73% of Chinese citizens consider their country a democracy. That's 20-30% higher than most Western countries, excluding Scandinavian ones. Everything in that poll affirms that China is one of the most democratic countries in the world. Certainly more than the US, where the president literally got 3 million less votes than his opponent and mass voter suppression is the norm.
Globally, China replacing the US is great for democracy, as well: the US's foreign policy consists mostly of coups and regime changes. When those don't work, you get an Iraq War. China, on the other hand, doesn't coup or overthrow multiple foreign governments every year.
What about the Muslim reeducation-camps though? What about Hong Kong? What about the great-firewall?
There have been multiple threads and comments in this lemmy, as well as other communist subs that have gone in-depth into the first two, as they are most emphasised by the media, so I'll give the "brief" overview of their refutations.
The situation in Xinjiang is an issue of counter-terrorism. That is not to say that all Uyghurs are terrorists, rather that, due to Xinjiang's proximity to US-destabilised regions, there has been a higher chance of extremist ideology in the area, which has affected some Uyghurs. The evidence of this are reports (that surfaced before the camp allegations arose) of Uyghur militias being trained in Syria, and multiple attacks that include stabbings, car rammings, etc, with casualties in the hundreds. So the response of the government is to open camps, or vocational schools, to provide work training for those who may have been influenced by extremist thought. Note that this is not a blanket repression of Uyghurs or their culture. Evidence of this is abundant. It's just not reported on. Please note that this is not a blanket repression of Muslims either - China has other Muslim minorities, like the Hui, that are completely fine, and if i remember correctly, China have more mosques per capita than the US.
A sidenote that I also find interesting that is usually looked over: Xinjiang contains 20% of China's fossil fuel reserves, has the capacity to produce 10% of China's renewable energy, and serves as an essential gateway to the BRI, a project that has the potential to shift global trade and power dynamics further to Asia. I wonder why the US and the media is so interested in Xinjiang?
With regard to Hong Kong, those colonial apologists got off easy. What happened with Hong Kong was essentially an attempted colour revolution, funded by US money. You really cannot say that China is a proto-fascist state, by 1) trying to have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, which is technically Chinese territory, and already has such extradition treaties with the likes of the US and the UK, and 2) trying to, y'know, not have a successful separatist movement in a key financial hub, and 3) not actually being responsible for the deaths of anyone in Hong Kong, despite the riots going for over a year. With regard to the national security law, it literally is a law that prohibits sedition or rebellion, a law that exists everywhere else in the world. The max sentence for breaking this law is life imprisonment. As opposed to the benevolent US or Japan, where it is the death penalty. More can be said, so I defer to the other megathreads and source compilations.
The Great Firewall is actually pretty good, ngl. Ideally ofc, censorship shouldn't occur at all, but given China's main geopolitical and ideological rival has a virtual monopoly on information, I understand why it exists. It helps filter out the bullshit propaganda that we get fed here in the West, and helps develop Chinese internet services, like Weibo, to rival US ones, like Facebook. Additionally, you can bypass it pretty easily. Just get a VPN. Chinese citizens know this, and those who are bothered enough, mainly the younger generations, will get one. I have heard that the analogy that the crime of using a VPN to bypass the Firewall is like the crime of jaywalking - pretty much accepted.
This was an excellent read, thank you so much for putting this together. I've been looking for a good summary to show people of why what we're told about china is wrong.
Yeah, it's really easy and nobody really cares if you use a VPN. I download shitloads of hentai on the regular.
Never thought I'd say that I miss the volcel police
I love this narrative, the US has been torturing Uyghur muslims from Afghanistan which is neighbouring Xinjiang (and muslims from many other countries) for ages now, but all of a sudden the US loves muslims, and is very concerned about their safety. Also Hong Kong was an obvious US funded color revolution, crawling with CIA assets, US senators advising protestors and had the sole goal of getting the US congress to vote for placing sanctions on Hong Kong. The new security law is an inevitable result of the trump administration overplaying it's hand.
A perspective from an american living in china, deals with a lot of the propaganda, and especially Hong Kong's security law:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxPKJF7EwM
I'm not here to try to Defend America. We're talking about China.
That's a cop out. We live in the imperial core, in countries with the most propagandised people in the world, a news media that is completely beholden to western security apparatus, use your critical thinking skill to investigate why western narratives have turned incredibly anti china as the US empire collapses and western capital loses its ability to wage war and coup any country they want.
Right but the point is that "talking about China" from the perspective of the imperial core lends you facts given to you by empire. How can you "talk about China" when you've already been spoonfed a bunch of nonsense about HK, etc?
Well hold on, are you dodging everything I just said? I'd be happy to discuss those three topics but you really need to address that survey.
I had a really long response typed out, but this website glitched and scrolled up to the top and deleted my whole comment. Basically, I don't think that particular study is relevant to this. That study only shows that their Citizens feel like they have a choice.
Something like 86% of US police say that US Law Enforcement is racist. Does that mean it's not racist?
I just had the same glitch. Very frustrating.
As to that comparison, it's so outrageous I'm not even sure what to say. How do cops saying cops are good refute the experience of Chinese citizens? If your claim is they are authoritarian fascists, it seems like the belief among Chinese citizens that they live in a fair democracy is extremely relevant.
I'm saying they are Proto-Fascist. Meaning the way has been paved for Fascism.
Another example of Proto-Fascism I would use is Donald Trump's Presidency.
But how? You haven't explained how besides a single line in a national anthem. Again, the people of China clearly disagree with you. Not the government - the everyday citizens. They think they live in a democracy. They think their government acts in the best interests of the people. They think the government has made their lives materially better. Do you know better than they do?
I just got that bug again. This is killing me.
Do you have a different study that shows how many Chinese think their government acts in the best interests of the people?
That study shows it in a number of ways. You should read through. Here's another that takes a long term view and shows not just high approval but growing approval.
Edit: Here's the actual study itself, rather than an article about it.
I will say, I feel less uneasy now about China as the World's superpower. I still don't like the idea. Having two superpowers compete to see who can go farther to the left just seems like a sweeter deal.
Chapos should just create Outer Heaven and become the superpower instead.
Big Boss was the good guy all along
Who is the scond superpower going farther to the left there?
America, hopefully.
I wish, but I'm putting my money on that not happening, at least not with all its current institutions intact. Refer to the history of entire 20th century. If anything, having a rival superpower makes the US more and more insanely right-wing. I mean, you can already see this in action today.
Oh I definitely don't agree with that. The only reason that the various reforms of the 40s, 50s, and 60s happened in the US were because of the threat of the USSR.
Domestically, yeah sure. Communists and other liberatory movements, as well as the shadow of the USSR, certainly forced the hand of the US to give concessions and reforms. However, the more important and insidious part to consider is its foreign policy - it was in competition with the USSR and socialism that the US committed genocide, bio-chemical warfare and other war crimes in Vietnam, Laos., Cambodia, or Korea. It was to counter the USSR and socialism that the US funded death squads in Iran, the Caribbean, Central and South America to torture and kill villages of innocents, or to continue to support the Apartheid regime, even after the Civil Rights Movement was successful in the US.
I have no reason to believe that the US won't be more or less the same in competition with China.
Good point, I was only thinking domestically.
I don't think their foreign policy will ever substantially change or capitalism wouldn't be able to sustain itself if it cannot exploit some other.
Agreed, imperialism and the domination of capital's interests transcends all other considerations in American foreign policy
I thought that American citizens have been swinging to the left. Am I wrong about that?
It's important to remember that our perceptions of people's views, that we usually get from social media, do not represent the entirety of the nation, but rather, clusters of people. I would say that, as a consequence of the BLM protests, although more people are coming to support more socially left views (The opposite is also true), the consensus on economic policy is roughly unchanged. Sure, most people want Bernie's platform, but most people don't want a radical reconstitution of the economy. Yes, the American left is starting, to some degree, find it's feet again, but it's hampered by decades of propaganda and ideology.
Let's also assume that the majority of Americans are economically left, a situation that I desperately wish for. This scientific study shows that normal people have virtually no say in policy outcomes: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
This is a summary from a lib source, but I recommend going through the actual study: https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oligarchy
In summary, even if the majority of US citizens are left, if they work within the confines of their system, nothing will change. Brown people will still be blown up in places halfway across the world, children will still mine for coltan in war-ravaged Africa.
Under what administration? Or do you think a revolution could actually be successful in the US?
Yes. I think a Leftist 'revolution' is possible. In fact, I think it's already starting.
At least we can say that of all western countries it is the one where the condition seem pretty ripe for a revolutionary moment. I just fear that in that case the US will slip into some fascist dictatorship instead of a revolution being successful.
But one can hope for things going right for once. Inshallah.
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It's fine dude. Everything else is amazing. I'll just copy-paste from notepad until it's fixed.
You can call them bad policies, and open up that discussion, but being arguably bad communists doesn't make them fascist.
I'm pretty firmly anti China but this is just over the top. Not all things you don't like are fascism
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