I gave Linux a real shot a while back and tried Linux Mint, was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to get up and running on my laptop.
Then I immediately had wifi driver issues, spent 3 hours trying to fix them by downloading random files linked on Linux boards and running terminal commands that I had no clue what they were doing, and eventually gave up and went back to Windows.
That's a pretty standard Linux experience to me, and largely why non-techy people will never be on board with it.
Installed kubuntu on a secondary drive cause plasma looked really slick. Booted it up after install to find that I couldn't connect to the internet—turns out the drivers for my extremely common (30k Amazon reviews) wifi adapter were not included. Couldn't get a hardwired connection (don't have access to router) so it seemed I was SOL. Then I found out I could use my phones hotspot if I plugged it in to my desktop—lucky I had a USBC to USBA cable.
Finally got connected and ran the terminal commands to grab drivers and updates, only the adapter still wasn't working. Ran some more suggested fixed online that didn't work. Looked into it more and apparently my (again, very common) model doesn't have native Linux drivers for whatever reason. Then I hopped through a few links to some random person's GitHub where they had taken the windows drivers and repurposed them for Linux. Installed those and finally got it working, albeit my download speeds seem a lot slower than on my windows install.
I don't want to harp on it that much because I like the idea of Linux and am hoping it gains more market share and becomes more user friendly, but the circlejerk of "It's so easy! I got my mom a Linux laptop and she's got no issues! Never need a terminal!" is very misleading in my experience. The minute your needs as a user diverge from the most basic things (or apparently when you're trying to get the internet to work, in my case) you're going to need to open up the terminal and copy cryptic inputs off some stackexchange post from 2015.
model doesn’t have native Linux drivers for whatever reason
That's not any Linux developer's fault. I think Linux fans should probably stick to telling people to buy a computer that is known Linux-compatible instead. Like a ThinkPad
Yeah I don't harbor any ill will about it, just more baffled than anything. I guess suggesting specific PC models is better for preventing compatibility issues, but then you're putting yourself in the position of "Hey check out this cool new OS, you just need to buy a new computer for it!" which is also not very welcoming to new users.
Same experience, but trying to install a program that doesn't include its dependencies, then finding out the dependency hasn't been updated since 2004 or something.
This is a huge thing that Linux purists can't seem to get over. Things like flatpak and snap need to become commonplace and easy to set up and well documented for application developers if anyone is going to use desktop software on Linux.
flatpak is cool, especially since it actually tries to sandbox apps instead of letting a single game access all your personal information if it wanted to
Yeah if Linux is going to try to do some of the stuff Windows can do, it needs to do it much better (i.e. sandboxing, privacy, ease of use). That's the only way you're going to get people to switch. It should also be easier on the developer side, which I think is probably not necessarily the case right now. I'm not sure how easy it is to develop a flatpak app or which programming languages you can use with it easily.
Could the issue have been due to the Linux Mint's kernel simply not yet supporting your wireless adapter? I have heard that Linux Mint remains on older kernels longer than other distributions for the purpose of stability. I had the same issue when I tried Linux Mint myself, which I fixed simply by switching to a distribution that used a newer kernel version.
Maybe, but Mint was sold to me as the easiest and best distro and these types of issues are still the reason many people don't vibe with Linux.
Because windows and OSX both hold your hand and shield you from your computer, and using Linux requires marginally more than 0 knowledge which puts off everyone that isn't at least a little good at and likes computers.
There's a million and one vendors creating software for Windows and Mac that you click to install and then click to use, and even that is enough to put off non-technical people in a lot of cases. Half the issues an IT desk solves are "turn it off and on again" because people are terrified of the unknowable box they think they broke.
Very pretentious take, of course it's an impossible box you literally need a degree to work on those shits. Not all of us have super stem brain I just want to play minecraft on something that has actual design so you can just press a button instead of remembering the right word to type in, shits nuts
not a pretentious take lol theyre 100% accurate
most end users are terrible with computers which is why linux is garbage
theyre also accurate with the turn off and turn on thing
So why should I, a person who doesn't have time to learn the intricacies of computer science use linux?
It's not as bad as they're saying.
Just like in windows, when you want to do something 98% of the time:
Press windows key
Type in the first few letters
Press enter.
Just like with your phone, there's an app store that has everything you need ready to download and install in 1 click.
In some ways, linux simplifies things that are needlessly complex in windows, like instead of every app having it's own updater or directing you to the web to download and manually install the new version, there's 1 app that just updates everything.
There's not a bunch of software you don't know where it came from and cannot remove like on Windows either.
You don't need to know compsci to use Linux but you'll probably need to be willing to learn a thing or two in the course of using it
hold your hand and shield you from your computer,
OSX maybe, but Windows offers the end user an astonishing number of ways they can brick their machine if they fuck with the wrong files.
The vendors thing is true though and the main real advantage windows/mac have over competitors.
Because it's fucking long and annoying to do. When I click the button on windows to go forward, my OS installs and boots. I am trying to spend 0 amount of time clowning myself in a terminal and I will not remember the commands by heart. I got too much in my brain
Also, I've never used a Linux distro that doesn't come with a functional archiver already installed.
You're supposed to install programs through a package manager. This can be done through app stores that most of the newbie distros have or through a frontend GUI (something like Synaptic for Ubuntu-derived distros). Once you open the store/GUI, you just need to search for it. For my case, I just type "7zip" and a bunch of packages show up, including a bunch that has already been installed. In any case, the vast majority of distros already come with an archiver anyways.
You're trying to install it like you would on Windows, hunting for individual exe files from individual websites and installing them individually by double-clicking them, which is an absolutely terrible idea. And it's such a terrible idea that even Windows has ways to not install programs like Windows.
person is having problems with their computer
Everyone: HELP THEM!
Linux evangelists: may I offer you an —new set of problems with your computer— in this trying time?
As someone who has used linux since 98 and still does daily: most people can’t switch, you always need to use the command line, learning about the operating system only makes you hate stuff like pulse and systemd, the environment consistently gets worse and more complex over time (just like all computer operating systems) and the way to fix peoples problems is to help them where they’re at instead of getting them to go on a fucking vision quest to resolve an error message.
This should be incredibly clear for people that read about the panthers. Meet people where they’re at, don’t offer em a hill to climb up.
Windows MTBF: 2 hours
Linux MTBF: 2 weeks
You're right about meeting people where they're at, but Linux really will improve most people's computer experiences by reducing the amount of failures they have.
This line of thinking is one of the failures of linux evangelism. Let me offer a strained metaphor:
A chain gun is one where the process of cycling the action, loading the next round and firing is all accomplished using a chain driven by an electric motor. In the guns were most familiar with all that stuff is done with energy from firing, either in the form of recoil or expanding gasses.
Chain guns are incredibly reliable. Like an order of magnitude fewer failures than guns that use the power of firing. The reliability comes from not relying on the exact propellant load and series of forces to ensure proper operation. Forget the obvious dud round scenario, consider edge cases like hot or weak loads. If there’s a little too much oomph in the odd cartridge it isn’t gonna make the action operate so fast that the next one jams trying to make its way up to the chamber. If you get a weak load the thing isn’t gonna short stroke and leave you with an empty or already fired chamber.
If there’s a big ol pile of mud in the magazine it’s not gonna stop the process of extraction and loading because of the gunk and extra drag or because the round is too stuck for the precision tuned gas port to deliver enough power to extract and eject the case.
So why don’t regular infantry carry these things if they’re as ahem bulletproof as all that? It’s because they weigh 2-3x as much and have a significantly different manual of arms.
Soldiers do fine with fifteen pounds less load and tap rack bang.
Most people using computers do fine until something breaks. They don’t need a chain gun, they need an armorer and some training to get their rig straightened up and keep ‘em from letting it get like that again.
I’m an ideal world we’d all be enjoying the dictatorship of the proletariat’s free and open source alternative to the information gathering machine that is commercial computing (and the commercial internet we’re all using it for), but right now people just need to be able to find recipes, look at TikTok’s and jerk off with their cia tracking devices.
find recipes, look at TikTok’s and jerk off with their cia tracking devices.
Which of those three things is actually harder on Linux?
I wouldn't call myself an evangelist, I've even posted on this very forum about basically every issue I've had since switching to Linux about a month and a half ago, but my experience with Linux is that 95% of stuff is exactly as easy as Windows and 5% is a lot harder and the average computer user doesn't do those 5% of things (frankly the average computer user doesn't need a desktop at all).
none of those things are noticeably easier or harder on any major platform. the problem is never doing those things with the computer. if it were people would just not do those things.
the problem is when a person is kept from doing those things and needs to remedy that situation.
like the soldier who suddenly finds their rifle jammed, the computer user doesn't compile information about what happened when, under what circumstances, on what website and under what additional factors (or more likely refer to the computers own records of these things).
you just close the browser and reopen it. reset the computer, look up something approximating what you remember as having happened on the internet. tap rack bang.
and let me tell you no matter the relative frequency of problems, the last part of that troubleshooting trifecta is so much easier under macos or windows it's hard to express.
i'll take the example elsewhere in the thread of the poor user who wanted to format their sd card in the steam deck:
you look up how to format an sd card in windows and it's incredibly straightforward and very consistent. nearly the same process from 95 to 11. same story for a mac. even before osx youre pretty much doing the same dance as now.
even though i can list off three ways to rectify their particular issue, all require some level of understanding that most regular ol computer users wouldn't have (the /dev filesystem, difference between filesystems and partitions, etc) or are incredibly dependent on the unique gui and distribution theyre using.
two days between failures the user can rectify is fine if the alternative is two weeks between failures the user doesn't understand how to handle.
Watched my Linux friend have a stroke trying to install Minecraft on his computer that was enough for me. That and the time I permanently bricked a linux laptop with a single line of code for homework.
Watched my Linux friend have a stroke trying to install Minecraft on his computer
how? it works out of the box
The Minecraft developers don't provide any easy-to-use installer for Linux. These are the options:
Linux Distributions
Debian and Debian-based Distributions
Arch and Arch-based Distributions
Other distributions
No documentation, just executable files that do who-knows-what.
Okay I guess the first two options are pretty simple, they're just a .deb and a link to the Arch page for the launcher.
No documentation, just executable files that do who-knows-what.
That's literally every program on Windows and Mac lmao
Because they come with installers that do all the work and have installation prompts for selecting install location and other options. They're usually pretty intuitive. The Minecraft installer is one such case.
the reason why i don't do the linux is pretty much: a lot of architectural programs don't have linux compatibility especially the BIM ones, but i have been tempted everytime windows comes in with DO YOU WANT TO GO FOR WINDOWS 11 bullshit
I jumped ship when Windows 8 removed the start menu. This is the five words that I told myself when I finally made my decision: "It's only gonna get worse."
"the only reason to not switch to linux is cos you're too technically illiterate to realise that it's objectively the correct OS" is a bonkers take considering the amount of very literate tech people who still use windows for no other reason than convenience lmao
I work a tech job, have a degree in software eng and I'm way too lazy to set the dang thing up and to have to fiddle with compatibilities and fucking around the internet to solve my issues when windows isn't failing nearly as much as yall seem to think it does
in fact if your windows is failing every 2 hours like someone claimed in this thread, you're doing something fundamentally wrong lmao
which isn't to say windows is a better OS, just that maybe 'the size of the average windows user's brainpan' is not the lone reason for holdovers that you think it is
when someone tries to hand you a bible on the street, do you take it?
Yes I didn’t know you didn’t have to. I have an entire room full of bibles
i got a good one to piss of linux bros
recently got a steam deck and theres a bug with the deck that causes it to fuck up the partition on your SD card when first formatting
I am a sysadmin so I figured itd be no problem just wiping that partition through whatever CLI steamos uses
WRONG
first off i had to figure out the command to show disks so i dont accidentally format my boot drive
turns out its "lsblk" for whatever reason, i will literally never remember that
after that I had to figure out the command to format the sd card, which i found on the steamdeck subreddit
that didnt work because the drive was mounted, okay nbd ill just unmount it then run the command. I unmount using the GUI and it then immediately remounts! I think okay, steam is running, its probably doing that. I close every background process I can and still have the same issue, great. I then spend half an hour trying to found how to unmount an SD card on Steam Deck and come up with nothing because its supposed to just work like every computer i've ever used does, you just press unmount.
I get frustrated and take a stab at it on windows:
open up CMD
DISKPART
LIST DISK
SELECT DISK 5
CLEAN
voila.
long story short linux's documentation is garbage and thats why most end users dont like it. formatting an SD card on windows is LITERALLY in the right click menu.
formatting an SD card on windows is LITERALLY in the right click menu.
You're comparing apples to bullets here. The reason the Steam Deck fucked you was because of a bug, so what happens when Windows bugs out while trying to format a drive?
someone else on the internet probably knows how to fix it. The steam deck didnt fuck me linux did, the formatting fucking up wasnt the problem it was fixing the fuck up that was the problem, why cant i just right click a drive to format it? Theres a lot of stuff on linux that is far too complicated compared to windows. I was legit completely baffled when I learned manjaro doesnt have a built in equivalent to event viewer, how does anyone troubleshoot anything without an event viewer! Windows has documentation to walk you through anything and the documentation is usually pretty robust.
ITT:
Linux Skeptic: I hate how Linux describes thing that applies equally to mac and windows but they've just gotten used to it.
The pushback has always been strongest among technologically semi-literates, the same type of people who bitch about Macbooks having the ⌘ key (it's literally just the alt key with a different symbol printed on). Technologically illiterates by and large are as equally clueless about Windows as Linux (and MacOS). They do not know how to install programs the proper Linux way of using package manager or the shitty Windows way of hunting down individual exe files, being more amendable towards the MacOS way of doing everything in the app store. They do not understand basic troubleshooting outside of "restarting the computer," they don't know what the task manager or event viewer is, they don't know what explorer.exe is, they don't even know what ad blocker is. Having said that, I would say actual technologically illiterates don't need a desktop PC anyways and are better off with a tablet like an iPad.
Semi-literates vastly underestimate the amount of knowledge that is completely unintuitive to an actual illiterate. No, pressing Ctrl+Shift+Esc to open up task manager and ending explorer.exe because the display is being glitchy isn't remotely intuitive at all. No, using regedit to edit random shit isn't remotely intuitive at all. I've seen gaming forums recommend editing the hosts file. If you can handle editing host, you can handling editing fstab Semi-literates also vastly underestimate the amount of time they spend in cmd. What, you never once ran
ipconfigorping google.comas rudimentary network troubleshooting? You never once ran achkdskbecause your Windows has been acting funky?Yes, learning how to use Linux in at least a semi-literate fashion is going to take an investment of time and energy. So why would you bother learning new shit? Beyond the technical merits of Linux relative to Windows, the main reason is that Linux has a wide variety of distros that allows you to hop to different distros if the distro you're currently using begins to suck. You can't do this with Windows (or MacOS). Whatever pigheaded decision Microsoft comes up with is something you have to live with. You can delay the inevitable, but at a certain point, you'll have to upgrade your OS to the shitty version with the pigheaded decision. There's no escape. When Microsoft took away the start menu in Windows 8, your only options at that time were holding out with XP/Vista/7 until Microsoft stopped supporting them, installing third-party software which at the time was completed closed software and taking the risk of malware, or getting on your knees begging Microsoft to re-add the start menu, which they eventually did with a crappier version.
Linux is another story. If some distro is making crappy design decisions or cannot stop shitting on itself (current distros in the hot seat are Ubuntu and Manjaro), you can simply hop to another distro. Manjaro not getting their shit together doesn't impact people who use Ubuntu or Fedora or Debian or any other non-Arch-based distros and they mostly don't affect other Arch users. If a desktop environment is beginning to suck (current DE in the hot seat is GNOME), it's a relatively simple matter of just picking a different DE.
90% new thing scary
10% i actually can't use any of the drawing programs i use on linux. i know you can maybe run things through wine or whatever, but since they already can barely run on my piece of shit computer it doesn't sound great
If you get the time it might be worth trying anyway - Linux tends to be a lot more lightweight compared to the latest Windows release, which gives it an advantage on slower hardware which might translate into your program running better on WINE than it currently does natively.
