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i love how that dude makes an absolutely ridiculous assumption, as i've never seen a "tankie" deny that current russia is reactionary as fuck, but since he's saying Bad Thing about The Tankies everyone just goes "hmm yea those tankies amirite? smh"
liberals are fucking idiots, they never have any idea what they're actually talking about and just throw around concepts and categories with the level of understanding of a monkey playing with a power tool
The only people representing themselves as "communists" while actively vocally supporting reactionary policies from Putin are the American "national socialists"... wait, no it says "MAGA communists" here on the paper. My bad.
The nationalistic, reactionary, openly "conservative social values" guys trying to claim to be "true" communists/socialists.
I mean I guess if the liberals are tricked by all like 15 of those dipshits who even exist worldwide, it might explain some things. Probably less "being tricked" and more just willfully buying into confirmation bias to help themselves keep supporting a genocidal president.
And just in case there's any confused liberals reading this: Marxism is inherently against bigotries like anti-LGBTQ+, racism, etc. because Marxists can recognize that these are socially constructed divisions used by capitalists to divide workers and prevent solidarity. (And obviously this isn't a denial of historical and modern oppression of people from marginalized groups. That oppression is and was real. But differences amongst humans have been stigmatized and weaponized on purpose. For so long that some people believe this is "natural" unfortunately) You can't show solidarity only with straight white workers and expect to achieve worldwide socialism. It doesn't mean everyone who calls (or called) themselves a socialist was perfect and fully accepting of all people. That would be pretending people aren't flawed now or in the past. But fundamentally, it's a contradiction to call yourself a communist/socialist/left anarchist/whatever else similar and also support anti-trans, anti-gay, racist, etc. politics. That's playing into the wishes of capitalists on top of also just making you a shit human. (It's also a contradiction to support imperialism, especially when it's from the worst offender: the US or it's proxies)
The nationalistic, reactionary, openly "conservative social values" guys trying to claim to be "true" communists/socialists.
Also there's like thirty of them. We know because they had a hilariously small convention, and then their group shattered over sexual harassment allegations.
It's just typical lib cope.
They make a boogeyman and then they tell one another campfire tales about how tankies are like this and how tankies do that.
It's really endemic especially across the progressive to radlib spectrum. (The conservative and more reactionary end also do it but it's in a different way - they appear to just make baseless claims that are post-hoc rationalisations to justify what they want to do but that's a different discussion.)
But yeah, the radlibs and centrists will gather round and assure one another that the tankie will simultaneously never actually read theory, they'll worship Marx/Stalin/whoever, they treat Capital like scripture, they actually support any sort of movement which drapes itself in a red flag, they can't argue and they'll just yell at everyone to read theory, they will enter into mainstream discourse and subvert it to turn people into Marxists if you let them, they spend all of their time online in circlejerks and they are no threat to anyone, they are a powerful voting bloc and they are an existential threat to Biden's reelection, they are all Chinese/Russian bots, they are all brainwashed victims of a political cult, they are all power-hungry opportunists who are just using socialism as a vehicle to achieve their power fantasies, they are all children who do not understand the real world, they spend all of their time reading and arguing about theory rather than doing anything effectual.
And they all sit around patting eachother on the backs for regurgitating these stories, each more fanciful than the last, and none of them seem to notice the contradictory claims.
It's a bit like the libs who cry fascism over Trump and when you ask them what did they do to resist fascism when Trump was in power you get cheap excuses and blank stares.
Like if I'm a brainwashed child that is a cult-victim then why would you berate me and throw all sorts of accusations at me?
If I treat communist theory as scripture and quote it at people then how is it that I also do not read any theory?
If I support anything that is draped in a red flag then why not start a "communist" wing of the DNC to funnel votes to Biden?
If I don't actually achieve anything and I'm relegated to an online circlejerk then how can I be a subversive infiltrator that will pervert good, honest liberal discourse to trick people into becoming communist (by yelling at people to read theory??) and how is it that I can influence the presidential elections?It's just ridiculous.
All of it is internal inoculation.
They know there is a threat of well-meaning liberals moving leftwards when exposed to actual leftists. The entire goal is inoculation against exposure. Tell untrue tales about what we are that are so bad they do not wish to see it or engage. Make it so bad that when accidentally exposed to us they are pre-primed for a poor interaction due to the hostility and expectations that are set.
It's about making sure that liberal is the furthest left that people ever go.
Absolutely this
I gotta admit that I kinda relish bursting these people's bubbles though. It's a bit of a bloodsport for me. (Maybe I'm some sort of intellectual masochist or something idk.)
There was this one ex-Soviet gusano I recently encountered online who you could just tell was born in the late 80s-early 90s chastising me about not knowing of the horrors of socialism and all that shit.
He accuses me of supporting atrocities because of muh Holomuddor and I threw it right back at him by telling him that he was engaging in famine denialism by implicitly arguing that the famine only affected the Ukraine and not other regions like Kazakhstan, not to mention the greater Eurasian region including China.
I asked them about how they feel about the cyclical famines that occurred under the Tsardom since they seem so fucking preoccupied with starvation in the Russian region and, I shit you not, they told me that they never heard about these other famines and they asked me to provide dates.
I roasted them over this because they claimed to:
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Care about famines
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Care about communism
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Care about history, especially Russian history
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Care about the fact that people don't know Russian history like they do
I was like bruh, if you don't recognise that one of the major events that directly preceded the October Revolution was the famine of 1891-1892 that generated a huge groundswell of anti-monarchist and pro-socialist sentiment amongst the Russian masses then what are you even talking about?
I also told them that they are welcome to weigh the political opinions of children however they like but if they demand that I must to defer to their political insights they personally had as a 6yo living in Russia in 1991 then they are a deeply unserious person - what are they going to tell me, that communism is bad because there wasn't enough ice-cream and naptimes were too short? Get real.
Anyway these discussions always go the same way and whatever silly liberal gets big ideas from hitting the kool-aid a bit too hard always seems to end up baffled and frustrated and kinda speechless when they have an exchange with an actual human being who happens to know what they're talking about instead of scoring some massive beat down on their caricaturised notion of the tankie, the way that it always plays out in their power fantasy. (I don't expect anything to come from these exchanges except maybe creating a Pavlovian association between talking shit and getting humiliated - I reckon they just scurry back to their circlejerk to seek out reaffirmation as a way to lick their wounds.)
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liberals think us merely saying Russia is a reactionary capitalist hellscape isn't enough. They're so deep in the weeds that any opinion of Russia other than wanting their total annihilation is considered a defense. Being in the real world where Russia is simply yet another capitalist country isn't correct to them. It has to be the most evil concentration of people on Earth or else you're giving them too much slack.
Funny how we constantly get told we support capitalist Russia, yet they never actually provide evidence for that.
I'm not surprised tho as lying about communists seems to be second nature to Western bootlickers
"We support the Russian Federation's opposition to US imperialism. We oppose their reactionary government including the state suppression of lgbtq+ people, minority nationalities and ethnic groups, etc. Using these issues as cudgels for US/NATO imperialism hurts all people in Russia, including oppressed minorities, and undermines the progressive nature of those liberation struggles in that country."
"Smdh tankies are pro-russia homophobes"
The Biden voters among them probably project their harm-reduction-but-actually-uncritical-support mindset onto people that support hamas/ anyone opposed to the us
Huh. I'm not usually active, so it's weird to see myself in a screenshot.
What was the goldmine in the thread about us being blocked in China? I remember people wondering why, people speculating, and one poster from China saying that they were accessing the site without a VPN just fine.
I remember going to some forum where they were complaining about being "blocked by china" years ago. Except I was reading the forum in China and I wasn't even using a VPN. That site is bullshit.
My comment from the original thread about this thread:
Great thread. I especially love how some guy aks why the thread I mentioned was a goldmine and gets immediate response with screenshot of some funny comments. I love that @good_girl@hexbear.net who took the screenshot must have seen the rest, comments like this:
Showbut still decided to screenshot only the funny comments. Anyways, happy dunking.
EDIT: Also, most of comments in the thread are crying about how could I ever imagine tankie defending anti-LGBT move from Russia, because tankies don't actually support Russia (sure). Well, this comment proves that tankies are definitely able to do all mental gymnastics to defend moves like that:
Show
If they defend China closing LGBT center, am I so crazy to expect them to defend Russia closing LGBT instance?
Because "LGBT center" is a western NGO, that should ring some bells. Pink washing is well alive.
Maybe do not stop you research on the fact that is was banned, but look into WHY it was banned. In other words, look beyond the aesthetics at the actual reasons. You people claim we support anything that has the right aesthetics, yet do exactly that every single time with no appareant capacity of learning from experience.
Sure, so instead of admitting that China's goverment did something wrong (like every other government does), you just create a story about how it was actually not an LGBT center, but rather an undercover CIA spy center. I'm sure all other government attacks on LGBT groups, orgs, forums and so on can be also explained by some made-up story. And I'm such a dumb person to expect people like you to create another story about Russia banning the queer instance.
The mental gymnastics you people do to justify any action of your favorite county's government that doesn't fit your idea of paradise in that country are incredible.
So instead of looking for the "Why" you make up a story why aesthetics is enough to analyse. You jump directly to "the government did wrong" before even looking at the "why". If the "why" isn't good, then the government did something wrong, not the other way around. Learn logic ffs.
And stop making up fan fictions. It is annoying. No one wrote anything about paradise of other insane shit you assume.
The guy who was being investigated was literally openly a fellow on the NEDs website. It's not a conspiracy lmfao.
Ah the NED, a non government organization fully founded by the US Government. Nothing to see here.
you just create a story about how it was actually not an LGBT center, but rather an undercover CIA spy center
Lol, lmao. Deeply unserious liberals either truly don't understand (or just support) the extent to which their Empire subjugates, interferes and attempts to destroy other nations because of ideology and geopolitics. You have no idea how evil the US empire is, and what it does to maintain it's brutal hegemony over the rest of the developing world.
I know that powerful governments operate various illegal places in other countries to serve their needs. China even admitted operating some illegal "police stations" in my country after they shut those down themselfs, and I have no doubts taht the USA does similar things. However, I haven't found any sources about this place being operated by US government. Maybe I'm bad at research, but no one from those claiming it was that provided any source either. The person in the second screenshot even says that they're just guessing. When I see my government, or US government, or the EU, do some bullshit, I don't immediately start thinking about how it was actually a move to defend from Chinese or Russian forces.
It's was the same in the thread I mentioned about China blocking access to lemmy.ml: there were definitely even some hexbear users criticizing China's censorship, but there were also multiple tankies writing essays about how the censoring is actually necessary because of capitalist propaganda (is lemmy.ml an US propaganda website?) and just doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it. I know I'm using the words "mental gymnastics" too much now, but I just can't see any better naming for some of the comments out there. So, it's not just about this particular LGBT center, it's about this mentality of trying to come up with any reason of why the (usually Chinese) government is actually doing good thing. Isn't that the ultimate win of propaganda, when people no longer need government to falsely justify it's actions, because they do the justification themselves?
China even admitted operating some illegal "police stations" in my country after they shut those down themselfs
Lol
When I see my government, or US government, or the EU, do some bullshit, I don't immediately start thinking about how it was actually a move to defend from Chinese or Russian forces.
Honestly I don't believe you, I see it all the time, liberals constantly defending US imperialism in the name of stopping RuZZians or the evil Chinese commies.
So, it's not just about this particular LGBT center, it's about this mentality of trying to come up with any reason of why the (usually Chinese) government is actually doing good thing.
Oh I'm sorry, is finding a reason for a given action now explicit 100% support of said government's actions? Most of the time, yes, China is correct in blocking US interference, because they're one of the remaining socialist nations who, after being opened up with American help, is now being backstabbed and made out to be the enemy by the US political class. The reason why we "defend" these nations and many decisions they make is explicitly because (a) they're one of the remaining Actually Existing Socialist states left, (b) often, these countries are blockaded, or are active enemies and targets of Western political propaganda which means the news/media/social media is geared towards misinformation, disinformation and fake news on AES states. Because of this, us explaining how something isn't true is always met with the response that we're Russian or Chinese bots, because everyone has to believe in liberalism/conservatism and the superiority of Western Civilization™ and nothing else.
Isn't that the ultimate win of propaganda, when people no longer need government to falsely justify it's actions, because they do the justification themselves?
Isn't it the ultimate win of propaganda when the population believes they're not propagandised?
Who the fuck cares if China censors Lemmy? You fucks pretend like VPNs are not a common thing in China. If people want to get here, they will find a way.
It's not a good or bad thing, it just doesn't particularly matter.
China is heavily censoring internet and you fucks pretend that it's actually a good thing. If they're living so well you all pretend, they would clearly see all those western propaganda articles lying about them and not believe them.
God you don't even understand what the intention is with the firewall do you? Its to prevent companies like Google using it's global network and capital to monopolize services in China. Why do you think it is that China has such a robust local tech sector? Because they do not allow shit like Google so they can promote their own solutions. Its why alibaba does cloud computing, why WeChat is the everything app, and why Huawei is their leading phone brand.
And guess what? The US engages in the same fucking shit. The only reason you don't recognize that is because the US dominates the world tech market. Huawei phones were band for federal use, and you have to import them if you want one. Tiktok is under threat for the same reason, it's eating home grown social media apps for lunch.
There is a fucking reason why China has had consistent year after year GDP growth. Its the same reason the USSR had a consistent GDP growth after the October revolution, and why they went from a feudal system to the fucking solar system in 40 years. They have a better command over their economy. US capital does whatever it wants and its like pulling teeth to get it to do anything for the national good. Meanwhile, China is ripe with innovations and they leverage their command over their economy to set hard priorities and goals nationally.
Censorship is a western reductionist viewpoint, a thought terminating notion, a fucking brain worm.
CGTN was literally banned in the UK. Just this week the German police prevented a Palestine conference from going ahead and banned a leftist Greek politician (Yanis Varoufakis) from entering the country, as well as banning his participation in any conferences via virtual appearance, permanently. Don't pretend the west does not practice censorship.
If China didn't 'censor' the internet they never would have developed their own technology sector and there would be only one worldwide monopoly for search, social media, ect. You want to live in that world?
You say that with the moral presumption that "censorship is bad", when in reality it is just a tool. Every single country does it, there is no value in the way you are treating it. The US wanting to ban TikTok falls into the same category. If Brasil, my country, decides to ban twitter in the coming days because Elon is trying to mess with us by not banning users that are breaking the law, it would be censorship, but it would also also be sending a message to Musk and the US that we won't accept this kind of shit.
Besides that, like the person you're replying to already said, VPNs are very common in China, the government does not give a fuck if you want to access the parts of the internet that are banned there.
You stupid fucks are hilarious. Learn to not be an illiterate fuck. The internet censorship is not about information control, as I said, VPNs are a common enough thing in China, it's about the ability to domestically develop and control internet structures the way the U.S. does. If people want to interact with the U.S. internet, it is but a click away.
One of the more interesting drawbacks of the censorship of the Chinese Internet is that the average Chinese person has absolutely no idea how racist, belligerent and backwards-thinking most Americans are because they don't interact with them online. They, on average, want us to 'succeed and prosper' as they have, and don't tell themselves stories about how badly we're doing or how stupid we are in order to make themselves feel better. They understand how this whole 'capitalism' thing is supposed to work far better than we do and so they don't care about.competeing, and they realize that it is a competition, but they think it should be friendly. After all, that's good for business, right, you liberal schmuck?
All I do is pay them the same common courtesy that they pay me.
You ever notice how reactionary conservative organizations often use doublespeak for their names and missions? Think of like Focus on the Family or things of that nature. What if I told you this practice isnt limited to conservative organizations?
Can you show me where the government healthcare is for trans children in the US or UK please?
China is expanding healthcare for trans children with hundreds of clinics nationwide. After its first clinic was successful just a couple of years ago.
How on earth can you possibly pretend that the west is better for trans people when it is legislatively committing genocide against us? While China is clearly following the science to the letter... It is OBVIOUS that things are going the wrong direction for us in the west while things are going in the correct direction for us in China. No amount of citing weird individual outlier situations in a country of 1.4 billion population instead of looking at what is actually being carried out in terms of functional actual infrastructure and policy will change that.
For the record, I am Chinese.
All orgs that receive foreign funding are eligible to be shut down. Straight, LGBT, doesn't matter. Especially if it's run a Fellow at Salzburg Global, an organization run by an American Billionaire. Sure is a made-up story with a paper trail on the website itself.
If it was straight up about silencing LGBT, the government wouldn't be opening transgender clinics for kids, an act that would cause domestic terrorism by some MAGA dipshit with a smooth brain if it were to happen in the US on private property, let alone a government funded one.
The Beijing No 2 Intermediate People’s Court went on to state that “social tolerance is a blessing of the rule of law” and highlighted the need to “respect diverse ways of living and protect the dignity of transgender people.”
In conclusion: The LGBT orgs that were shut down was due to foreign ties, not the state being inherently against the concept of queer people.
because tankies don't actually support Russia (sure)
This is the same thing you fools do with elections. Whenever someone says they won't support Biden you scream that it automatically means we support Trump despite knowing deep down in your heart of hearts that that is complete and total bullshit.
You swim in a sea of ideology. You drown yourselves in it to the point that you no longer say rational things or analyse situations as rational actors.
I didn't screenshot the comment you posted because there's nothing wrong with it lmfao
Don't you think you have a journalistic responsibility to report a fair and balanced accounting of events as they transpired?
