Maybe as an experiment, let's try to understand each other's positions ITT and not have the same boring old arguments (because they're boring).

Edit - nice discussion everyone, thanks <3. I'm seeing a lot of responses from ML and not many from anarchists, but maybe I'm the only anarchist on this site lol

  • CoolerOpposide [none/use name]
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    edit-2
    2 years ago

    (I’m a Marxist-Leninist)

    Maybe a hot take, but in the baby stages of organizing your community and workplace (especially speaking about organizing in the west) there really shouldn’t be any fundamental differences between how MLs and Anarchists organize. I don’t say this just because we can’t afford to let ideological divides exist, but because at the core of building class consciousness and a revolution we both really need almost all of the same working class institutions in place to successfully revolt against a capitalist state.

    Further, to do real dialectical materialism you explicitly can’t be ideologically dogmatic and must methodically apply the best methods of organization through real, thorough study of your community. Mao had some absolutely banger quotes talking about just this

    From Mao in “On Contradiction”:

    There are many contradictions in the course of development of any major thing. For instance, in the course of China's bourgeois-democratic revolution, where the conditions are exceedingly complex, there exist the contradiction between all the oppressed classes in Chinese society and imperialism, the contradiction between the great masses of the people and feudalism, the contradiction between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, the contradiction between the peasantry and the urban petty bourgeoisie on the one hand and the bourgeoisie on the other, the contradiction between the various reactionary ruling groups, and so on. These contradictions cannot be treated in the same way since each has its own particularity; moreover, the two aspects of each contradiction cannot be treated in the same way since each aspect has its own characteristics. We who are engages in the Chinese revolution should not only understand the particularity of these contradictions in their totality, that is, in their interconnections, but should also study the two aspects of each contradiction as the only means of understanding the totality. When we speak of understanding each aspect of a contradiction, we mean understanding what specific position each aspect occupies, what concrete forms it assumes in its interdependence and in its contradiction with its opposite, and what concrete methods are employed in the struggle with its opposite, when the two are both interdependent and in contradiction, and also after the interdependence breaks down. It is of great importance to study these problems. Lenin meant just this when he said that the most essential thing in Marxism, the living soul of Marxism, is the concrete analysis of concrete conditions. Our dogmatists have violated Lenin's teachings; they never use their brains to analyse anything concretely, and in their writings and speeches they always use stereotypes devoid of content, thereby creating a very bad style of work in our Party.

    [Click ⬆️ to read the quote, this line is just to make reading this comment more aesthetically pleasing]

    When I see western MLs being condescending or dismissive towards anarachists I can’t help but get pissed off. They constantly ask these anarchists “where is your successful revolution? What has anarchism accomplished?” to which all I can think to say is “where is YOUR successful revolution, and what have MLs in the west accomplished?”

    In the same breath these MLs will praise Mao though, and they love Lenin, which is funny because if they did any amount of close reading of Mao/Lenin’s texts they’d see something completely contradictory to their personal dogmatic approach to fostering socialism. Lenin and Mao as we know them would not have ever existed, and their revolutions would have never have been possible without the anarchist factions of leftists in their early development both organizationally and ideologically. These anarchist influences are especially obvious in Mao’s writings and ideology, which should be no surprise since anarchism was the dominant faction of leftist intellectualism in China for quite some time. The best dunk on dogmatic MLs of all time came from Mao himself

    Also from Mao in “On Contradiction”:

    As regards the sequence in the movement of man's knowledge, there is always a gradual growth from the knowledge of individual and particular things to the knowledge of things in general. Only after man knows the particular essence of many different things can he proceed to generalization and know the common essence of things.

    When man attains the knowledge of this common essence, he uses it as a guide and proceeds to study various concrete things which have not yet been studied, or studied thoroughly, and to discover the particular essence of each; only thus is he able to supplement, enrich and develop his knowledge of their common essence and prevent such knowledge from withering or petrifying. These are the two processes of cognition: one, from the particular to the general, and the other, from the general to the particular. Thus cognition always moves in cycles and (so long as scientific method is strictly adhered to) each cycle advances human knowledge a step higher and so makes it more and more profound. Where our dogmatists err on this question is that, on the one hand, they do not understand that we have to study the particularity of contradiction and know the particular essence of individual things before we can adequately know the universality of contradiction and the common essence of things, and that, on the other hand, they do not understand that after knowing the common essence of things, we must go further and study the concrete things that have not yet been thoroughly studied or have only just emerged. Our dogmatists are lazy-bones. They refuse to undertake any painstaking study of concrete things, they regard general truths as emerging out of the void, they turn them into purely abstract unfathomable formulas, and thereby completely deny and reverse the normal sequence by which man comes to know truth. Nor do they understand the interconnection of the two processes in cognition– from the particular to the general and then from the general to the particular. They understand nothing of the Marxist theory of knowledge.

    • bbnh69420 [she/her, they/them]
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      edit-2
      2 years ago

      When I started reading Mao, I was amazed at how much of the mass line particularly seemed like a manual for practical anarchism

      • CoolerOpposide [none/use name]
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        2 years ago

        Mao’s works are criminally underrated. He does such a good job of providing a concrete example of how learning from the great wisdom of Lenin and Stalin in their hindsight of the October Revolution, in addition to Marx and Engels (and let us not forget the many anarchist intellectuals who influenced Mao as well, especially in his early years) all helped in carrying out a successful socialist revolution and an anti-colonial war simultaneously. Not to mention, we also get a window through Mao’s writing of nearly 5 entire decades of an active account of fostering the development of socialism from early organizing through anti-feudal wars, through civil war, through anti-colonial war, through to a victorious socialist revolutionary war, and post-war state function. Just such a valuable archive that reaches so many different topics and scenarios.