• oce 🐆@jlai.lu
          ·
          7 months ago

          Including people who didn't really decide on where to live, like their children?

          • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml
            ·
            7 months ago

            Including people who didn’t really decide on where to live, like their children?

            Well that's an interesting moral line in the sand to draw in this case.

            https://visualizingpalestine.org/visual/six-wars-old/

            Show

            • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
              ·
              7 months ago

              I think wanting to avoid innocent civilian deaths is a moral line that is valid for both sides.

              • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml
                ·
                edit-2
                7 months ago

                While I agree with that, it doesn't feel like your question to the other commenter carries quite the weight in this specific context as it might in others given that neither side has been clean about this, and it's not the Palestinian side that has intentionally blown up a playground within the past week.

                I do generally think it's hard to equate the two fairly in this context, given the power differential between the two forces and their relative capabilities to be discerning if they so chose.

                • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  I apologize if I misunderstood you, but there is no both sides here. The united nations recognizes the right to armed struggle against occupation.

                  UNGA Resolution 37/43 (1982) reaffirmed the “inalienable right” of the Palestinian people “and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination” to self-determination. It also reaffirmed the legitimacy of “the struggle of peoples for […] liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle.”

                  https://www.cjpme.org/fs_236/

                  It even mentions the Palestinian struggle explicitly.

          • idkmybffjoeysteel [he/him]
            ·
            7 months ago

            Adults who were born in Israel, yes, children, no, but your handwringing is funny, since dead Israeli toddlers are purely hypothetical, and you clearly give no fucks about dead Palestinian babies.

            Stick your hand in a blender and turn it on.

            • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
              ·
              7 months ago

              you clearly give no fucks about dead Palestinian babies.

              I do. Mentioning civilian victims on Israeli an side doesn't mean I don't care about civilian victims on Palestinian side, this point was simply already covered largely.

              Also please refrain from personal attacks and other violence threats.

              • Infamousblt [any]
                ·
                edit-2
                7 months ago

                You: actively defending genocide

                Also you: PLZ NO PERSONAL ATTACKS CIVILITY IS IMPORTANT

                • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  No, I am not defending the war crimes of Israeli army nor the ones of Hamas. Just read what I wrote, there's no more to imagine.

                  • Infamousblt [any]
                    ·
                    7 months ago

                    You're pointing out the crimes of the victims rather than the oppressors. That's defense of the oppressors no matter how many mental backflips you do to pretend it's not

            • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
              ·
              7 months ago

              I find different sources saying about 30 children were murdered, but given that some bodies were mutilated or burnt the counts are not obvious. https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/dozens-of-children-died-in-hamas-oct-7-attack-on-israel-contrary-to-online-claim/

              • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
                ·
                7 months ago

                Killed by who?

                A separate report published in Haaretz noted that the Israeli military was “compelled to request an aerial strike” against its own facility inside the Erez Crossing to Gaza “in order to repulse the terrorists” who had seized control. That base was filled with Israeli Civil Administration officers and soldiers at the time.

                An Israeli woman named Yasmin Porat confirmed in an interview with Israel Radio that the military “undoubtedly” killed numerous Israeli noncombatants during gun battles with Hamas militants on October 7. “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she stated, referring to Israeli special forces.

                While being held by the Hamas gunmen, Porat recalled, “They did not abuse us. We were treated very humanely… No one treated us violently.”

                She added, “The objective was to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.”

                https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

                I'm aware that some of the hostages that were taken were children. All accounts suggest that they were treated well, for hostages anyway. Its important to recognize that the Zionist regime keeps thousands upon thousands of Palestinian hostages, many of which are children. The Zionists could have negotiated an exchange, ensuring the safe return of all Israeli hostages. Instead, they decided to bomb the living shit out of Gaza, pretty much ensuring their demise.

          • ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]
            ·
            7 months ago

            It's tragic, but that's what happens when your state primarily defends itself with human shields.

          • D61 [any]
            ·
            7 months ago

            Why would there be Israeli children inside places like the West Bank or Gaza?

              • D61 [any]
                ·
                7 months ago

                Why would an Israeli family be living in the West Bank or Gaza? And who would be more likely to be killing their children, Israeli occupation forces or Palestinian resistance to the occupation forces?

                  • BeamBrain [he/him]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    7 months ago

                    Between the starvation, contaminated water, lack of medical care, and indiscriminate IDF bombings, a large portion of Palestinians are going to become martyrs whether they want to or not. I don't blame Hamas for helping the children feel better about the reality of their situation.

      • D61 [any]
        ·
        7 months ago

        If a civilian comes at you with a weapon, trying to kill you, are they still a civilian?

        If a civilian stands in front of relief trucks, sending food/medicine/clothes/tents while the military destroys food/medicine/homes, are they still a civilian?

        If a civilian cheers every time one of their country's soldiers shoots a random person or when a bomb in dropped on a hospital, or when missiles are fired at the places went to get away from the fighting, are they still a civilian?

        'Cause, from where I'm sitting, being okay with slaughtering people kinds makes it seem like they aren't 'innocent' in this.

        • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
          ·
          7 months ago

          I don't think this applies to the general understanding of innocent civilians indeed.

          • D61 [any]
            ·
            7 months ago

            So now it switches from civilians to "innocent" civilians.

      • Łumało [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        7 months ago

        If a German occupied my home during 1940, I'm telling you he wouldn't be a civilian to me. He'd be a complacent thief. A low life settler.

      • Infamousblt [any]
        ·
        7 months ago

        Israelis are willingly targeting civilians. Where is your hand wringing about that?

      • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        edit-2
        7 months ago

        There are no civilians in Israel; every settler is a combatant by virtue (ha) of their theft.

        And before you start pearl-clutching and morally peacocking like I know you would if not for this addendum; no, I do not factor Israeli children into my calculus. It sucks for them that their parents decided to either become, or carry on the family tradition of being settler scum; but does Israel ever consider Palestinian children? No. They don't. Israel calls Palestinian children Hamas when it suits them; ergo, I don't consider Israeli children. At all.

      • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        edit-2
        7 months ago

        Deadassed wrong; Palestine isn't a settler-colonial abomination. There's no call for their civilians to be bombed; and if you think there is, you might be a cracker-assed settler who needs to go back to where their ancestors came from

          • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
            ·
            edit-2
            7 months ago

            You’re a few IQ points short

            Opening with eugenics! Bold today, aren't we?

            Show

            and complain a lot about jews

            If you had the first iota of literacy or reading comprehension, you'd see that my complaining is about Zionists, and that there's a couple instances of my making sure that I split out a deliberated, principled difference between genocidal Zionists, and the Jews that protest their being used as a shield by those perpetrating the butchering of Palestine. Or are you one of the ones who has to conflate Judaism with Zionism to make the hasbara accusation of antisemitism when public opinion doesn't go your way?

            coon-minstrels

            If you were a part of a marginalized, oppressed, still-shackled minority, and you had to watch members of your community sell out to the oppressor, shucking and jiving for them at every turn, you'd be a little bit pissed about it too-- but expecting someone like you to have any kind of empathy is kind of a tall ask; I get it.

            crackers

            ...And? See the previous entry and try to put it together yourself.

            You’ll complain about zionists and then immediately cry about lore in a video game

            Do you expect anybody to fixate on the world's ills 24/7? Not even the most diehard anticolonialist, not even the most principled communist is capable of that (and I'm FAR from the most principled, trust that), they'd burn out and become useless to the cause after that. But again, expecting you to know anything about maintenance of one's principles and staving off the kind of nihilism neoliberalism inflicts on its atomized populace is like trying to explain particle physics to a pigeon. All you get is a shat-on table for your trouble.

            Please suckstart a shotgun with your one-day-old profile havin ass; dealing with scratched crackers like you is tiring.