Sounds great until they start networking with each other, forming underground reactionary organizations, black markets, hiding arms caches, working with foreign spies, etc.
Certain portions of certain societies simply cannot be reformed without forced education, and execution for the worst offenders
No, just no. The death penalty is anathema, a breach of fundamental human rights, and any leftist should IMO stand against it (most of them do outside of that hellhole that is the US, by the way - given the regular blood-thirst on that subject here I've always suspected some kind of US bias).
I don't know if "anyone can be reformed" and I don't give a flying fuck; if it isn't true those people should serve as an example for education. And even if that doesn't work they should not only be left alive but in some measure of comfort because we're not fucking nazis and killing people outside of actively stopping a direct threat or a revolutionary context, if the community even remotely has the resources to ensure their survival, is despicable and wrong.
Nazis get the wall and you will never convince me otherwise. It’s hardline Soviets who executed the worst generation of monsters in human history that allow you to hold sheltered idealist opinions like this.
In the middle of a revolution, definitely. As part of a legal system ? absolutely not.
It’s hardline Soviets who executed the worst generation of monsters in human history that allow you to hold sheltered idealist opinions like this.
That's absolute bullshit and you know it. The soviets realized and knew perfectly well that the death penalty was highly problematic in any state remotely close to calling itself "leftist" and planned to remove it eventually. And calling it "sheltered" is just contempt, by the way; there is no worthwhile hope for the future without some idealism.
I've spent too much time arguing about this in the past here on hexbear and it always ends up going in circles and making me feel cross so I won't pursue this any further, mind you.
The Soviets gulaged and executed reactionaries all throughout the revolution, the following decades of peace & the following period of war. They never once abolished the death penalty before they went revisionist, nor has China, nor has DPRK. Can’t remember about Cuba, but they exiled a bunch instead.
It’s only western leftists who have liberalism and idealism to work through that still clinge to this type of rhetoric. It’s useful in protesting and fighting their own capitalist states, I don’t think capitalist states should have the death penalty (or exist at all really) but it’s useless when applied to a dictatorship or the proletariat and their urgent program of suppressing the bourgeoisie out of existence.
It’s only western leftists who have liberalism and idealism to work through that still clinge to this type of rhetoric
Marx did too, you know. I quote:
It would be very difficult, if not altogether impossible, to establish any principle upon which the justice or expediency of capital punishment could be founded in a society glorifying in its civilization [...] and besides, there is history - there is such a thing as statistics - which prove with the most complete evidence that since Cain the world has neither been intimidated nor ameliorated by punishment
And he distinguished perfectly well between a revolutionary state of thing - no excuse for the terror and so on - and the machinery of post-revolutionary states.
Your ideal leftist state can execute people in little clean rooms with little bits of paper and little laws and even judges, I imagine, all they want; they're still fucking murdering people, and I'd have a hard time calling such a society "civilized", personally. Sentient life is a miracle, it is what we fundamentally fight for, and all of it is sacred, period - taking one is something you do when you have no other choice.
Again, I won't engage further; discussing this topic specifically always makes me sad on hexbear. I'm all for pragmatism over idealism; this isn't it, though. Keeping someone alive and in relative comfort doesn't cost a communist society much.
Marx also said when it’s our turn we will not apologize for the terror, and that an entire class of society had to be ended through state enforced violence
:ok: we will have to one day, if we are worth anything as people or communists
I know fascists are people with trauma and reasons for being who they are, with sympathetic parts of their lives
Doesn't stop me wanted every last one of them dead
why are you comparing killing a member of an ideology of insanity and genocide with that of killing an ethnic group? Fascists chose to be fascist scum, they get consequences.
Probably the working with foreign spies bit; if a person was a notable fash before they were forced into a legitimate job, then the cia will do what it does best
Sounds great until they start networking with each other, forming underground reactionary organizations, black markets, hiding arms caches, working with foreign spies, etc.
Certain portions of certain societies simply cannot be reformed without forced education, and execution for the worst offenders
No, just no. The death penalty is anathema, a breach of fundamental human rights, and any leftist should IMO stand against it (most of them do outside of that hellhole that is the US, by the way - given the regular blood-thirst on that subject here I've always suspected some kind of US bias).
I don't know if "anyone can be reformed" and I don't give a flying fuck; if it isn't true those people should serve as an example for education. And even if that doesn't work they should not only be left alive but in some measure of comfort because we're not fucking nazis and killing people outside of actively stopping a direct threat or a revolutionary context, if the community even remotely has the resources to ensure their survival, is despicable and wrong.
Nazis get the wall and you will never convince me otherwise. It’s hardline Soviets who executed the worst generation of monsters in human history that allow you to hold sheltered idealist opinions like this.
In the middle of a revolution, definitely. As part of a legal system ? absolutely not.
That's absolute bullshit and you know it. The soviets realized and knew perfectly well that the death penalty was highly problematic in any state remotely close to calling itself "leftist" and planned to remove it eventually. And calling it "sheltered" is just contempt, by the way; there is no worthwhile hope for the future without some idealism.
I've spent too much time arguing about this in the past here on hexbear and it always ends up going in circles and making me feel cross so I won't pursue this any further, mind you.
The Soviets gulaged and executed reactionaries all throughout the revolution, the following decades of peace & the following period of war. They never once abolished the death penalty before they went revisionist, nor has China, nor has DPRK. Can’t remember about Cuba, but they exiled a bunch instead.
It’s only western leftists who have liberalism and idealism to work through that still clinge to this type of rhetoric. It’s useful in protesting and fighting their own capitalist states, I don’t think capitalist states should have the death penalty (or exist at all really) but it’s useless when applied to a dictatorship or the proletariat and their urgent program of suppressing the bourgeoisie out of existence.
Marx did too, you know. I quote:
It would be very difficult, if not altogether impossible, to establish any principle upon which the justice or expediency of capital punishment could be founded in a society glorifying in its civilization [...] and besides, there is history - there is such a thing as statistics - which prove with the most complete evidence that since Cain the world has neither been intimidated nor ameliorated by punishment
And he distinguished perfectly well between a revolutionary state of thing - no excuse for the terror and so on - and the machinery of post-revolutionary states.
Your ideal leftist state can execute people in little clean rooms with little bits of paper and little laws and even judges, I imagine, all they want; they're still fucking murdering people, and I'd have a hard time calling such a society "civilized", personally. Sentient life is a miracle, it is what we fundamentally fight for, and all of it is sacred, period - taking one is something you do when you have no other choice.
Again, I won't engage further; discussing this topic specifically always makes me sad on hexbear. I'm all for pragmatism over idealism; this isn't it, though. Keeping someone alive and in relative comfort doesn't cost a communist society much.
Marx also said when it’s our turn we will not apologize for the terror, and that an entire class of society had to be ended through state enforced violence
Cool. Then go pick a gun and murder two fascists. Even if they catch you the math checks out.
Fuck off with your fascist rethoric. Even the most despicable fascist deserves the possibility of change.
'kill fascists'
'omg fascist rhetoric'
um no, the most despicable fascists deserve to be executed.
Go ahead, pick a gun. Go on.
It's the same answer i give to bloodthirsty liberals that believe all russians automatically deserve death. You are one and the same.
:ok: we will have to one day, if we are worth anything as people or communists
I know fascists are people with trauma and reasons for being who they are, with sympathetic parts of their lives
Doesn't stop me wanted every last one of them dead
why are you comparing killing a member of an ideology of insanity and genocide with that of killing an ethnic group? Fascists chose to be fascist scum, they get consequences.
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Wrong, they deserve pit
Redemption arcs and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
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Eventually, but for a while after a revolution there will be people trying undo it, and that's the only way to really handle them.
But for any crime short of being a fascist, no there shouldn't be a death penalty.
For now. :doomer:
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Labor is labor
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How are they going to afford arms caches as grocery store clerks
Probably the working with foreign spies bit; if a person was a notable fash before they were forced into a legitimate job, then the cia will do what it does best
The NED will provide funding