American fascists, such as misanthropic or the atomwaffen's "National Socialist Order", nor are the fascist-infiltrated paramilitary groups aren't organizing anti-war protests, they're either participating in the war and getting blown up right now, or agitating for the war, or attempting to accelerate the american collapse through terrorist actions.
I'm done with this. If you and your org think this is the proper course, I'm not going to talk you out of it and you're not going to talk me into it. I'll tell you this, seeing who you all are willing to align with and who your twitter is platforming, I certainly don't feel like PCUSA are my allies right now.
You're more than entitled to your very respectable opinion. So as long as you're against American imperialism and against NATO intervention in the Ukraine War then I'll personally consider you an ally on the issue.
I would gladly burn this country to the ground and live in relative poverty if it would end American imperialism and I could live in peace with the woman I love.
While I'd much rather see an America in the outlines of Z Foster's 'Towards Soviet America' with some edits for modern circumstances, assuming that's not a possible path towards world socialism and peace, I genuinely hope your wish comes true.
I agree with you. But that's down the road by roughly two years.
Assuming that two years down the road that the ukraine war concludes, biden loses the whitehouse and trump or depantspiss wins. It would be inevitable that the hogs would go out to brunch and the ghouls would start ratcheting up the war machine with China in the cross-sights.
At this assumed future point, I would pivot towards agitating among the disempowered democrats to being anti-war against the republican government, seeing how it's easily more fertile grounds historically.
Libs and hogs, popularly speaking (as in ground level and not ghoul level) constantly operate in mirrored opposition to each other depending on who's ghouls are cranking the lever for the next 4 years. The only notable time there's been any noticeable change to the undercurrents is in the brief periods where the lever of power is handed off to the other party's ghouls and you see a subsequent fragmenting of the outer edges of the popular sides as one kicks the other out of the brunch seat and starts eating while the ousted one starts griping about not getting their treats. That fragmenting that occurs is the act of radicalization of the most politically conscious people that were within the status quo field that both libs and hogs jostle in. You can see this in how Bernie losing yet Biden winning resulted in the embryo of socialism emerging into the common parlance of America once more after decades of red-baiting.
Simply put, Libs only cling to liberalism until it starts stomping on their face while shouting "MODS! MODS!"
Also, on your note about hogs. We're capital C Communists, We literally champion Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Che, Sankara, Bishop, Foster, Hall, Il-Sung, Jong-Il, and all the countless other heroes of the people they consider 'scary people'. I'm pretty sure that's much more scary, since they're actively financing Ukraine fascism.
The issue is when people like Trump or DeSantis are in power the Libs don’t interpret that as liberalism but as fascism-lite and instead of becoming sympathetic to the left, suck up to whatever mediocre savior the DNC puts in front of them. So helping the right wing will probably make deprograming Libs harder, if anything Pete Buttchug running the country as things slowly go to shit would be better optics for us.
So I partially agree, partially disagree with this. I would agree with the first part that the material conditions of the majority of politically conscious liberals predispose them to accept any line from their preferred status quo warriors full hook, line, and sinker. The part I would disagree with is having the goal of deprogramming politically concious libs as their material conditions predispose them to supporting the status quo and any attempt to persuade them otherwise results in, at best, creating well-meaning succdems that fundamental want nothing to change and will backstab you the moment you push too hard, at worst repulse them into outright neoliberal anti-communism where they will support fascist death squads hunting you down.
I will also add on the inverse for politically conscious chuds. Their material conditions also push them back towards the status quo, with any attempt to persuade them usually results in at best weirdly conservative succdems - think Trudovik with Right SR characteristics - or at worst the fascist death squads that that neoliberal anti-communists empower to hunt you down.
I would argue the ideal target for for agitation is the generally apolitical worker with whom it doesn't really matter if they unconsciously lean towards liberals or conservatives as they're more interested in improving their material conditions over bickering in the world of pure idealism that is American political theater.
To tie this into where you said...
Honestly all this just backs up my theory that the left is in a shit spot where there’s not really any immediate action we can take that doesn’t have a high chance of just making things worse for us. The only real course of action is trying to predict the future and prep for action then.
I would argue in disagreement in that there's always actions that the Communist and Anarchist Left can take that has tangible benefits. This is accomplished by entering critical and supporting workplaces and actively agitating for collective unionization to materially improve the living conditions of your coworkers, or entering into critical and supporting workplaces that has weak unions and growing a more radical wing out of the discontented workers to supplant the union leadership that collaborates with the boss with more militant - and hopefully socialist - leadership. This, and all the other kinds of organizing work - be they tenant's unions, unemployed unions, non-profit insurance companies, ethnic community centers, youth education programs, food distribution centers, etc. - is the real substantive work that builds the power of the Communist and Anarchist Left in America. Continuing on to some other bits of your comment...
If there’s photos of you marching with some anti-vaxx YTer named “EpicKek” who supports Russia cuz the thinks Zelensky is a secretly-trans Satanist pedophile, there’s no way you can really explain away that.
I'll be blunt on this, your primary targets at any sort of political event is the people that attend protest events and not any of the organizers themselves, if your group is not also directly organizing the event. Ideally your goal would be to have agitprop pamphlets that's targeted to your audience and educates them with material facts that would point them towards taking a more knowledgeable anti-war position other than whatever claptrap theyve heard before. This could include facts about how this war started in 2014 and was planned for in '91, or playing to their biases and slipping in subtle messages such as "Both Communist China and North Korea support Russia in their war against Biden's NATO globalists and their nazi dogs in Ukraine, which is why Biden is constantly trying to start wars with all of them." And you take those pamphlets and larp as a trotskyite for a hot minute and hand them out as far as you can.
And a final note,
That’s shit you can keep on the DL.
No duh lmao nobody wants to get their ass kicked for being a larper. You should operate with subterfuge in mind. Which is why I referenced transmission belts.
It is your duty as a member of the imperial core to sabotage your own nation’s ability to make war in any way possible, regardless of whether it results in collapse, barbarism, socialism or anything else. Your first duty to the people of the world is to bring down your own beast and stop it’s attacks
It’s like voting in the guy who wants to murder kittens cuz you want to get the guy who murders puppies out of office.
No. Nobody is voting. It is like saying killing kittens is bad with some people who probably think killing puppies is ok. They aren't even killing puppies.
That’s not true, I am organizing with ANSWER Coalition, The People’s Forum, PSL, CodePink in a principled event to demand peace. Not a bunch of fascists, libertarians, and patsoc grifters.
So lets get this straight for everyone reading this,
This persons response to the fact that "red/brown alliances are bad" is "nothing can be done without allying with fascists".
So in other words, our hero here want a repeat of what happened to all the communists, bless their hearts, who tried a red/brown alliance in naziland g*rmany during the mid 20th century.
The fascists are whoever is currently in charge of the globe spanning fascist empire, and it is currently the Liberal Democrats acting most fascistic with their warmongering
Quite convenient of you, a comfortable member of the core, to absolve yourself of all responsibility and demand total destruction of everything instead of putting in any effort in uncomfortable coalition building with those who are aligned with your interests currently
Except there is an anti-war left, several people in this thread have given examples of anti-war protests organized by actual leftists, they just don't have the platform of Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard, because they're actual principled communists and not grifters.
fascism is a very specific idea of how society should be run that is admittedly hard to define but does involve a belief in a societal militarism revolving around a conflict of races whereby only some races have a right to exist that also involves the systematic rooting out and killing of those seen as lesser or subversive.
America is not fascist America is liberal. Liberalism is also horrific
it is currently the Liberal Democrats acting most fascistic with their warmongering
Sorry but this is just straight up not true. Not because liberals aren't bloodthirsty imperialists, but because right wingers are currently talking about "a throne of Chinese skulls" while gearing up to do Krystalnacht 2 on trans people. There is no cooperation there that doesn't end in mass graves.
I mean, unless you're signatory to the Grand Red/Brown Alliance Treaty all you're doing is giving brown shirts the power to alter your policy choices by doing whatever they want.
Let me, for this comment, speak officially as a cadre of the party. This is purely my opinion and perspective that is resulting from my own personal experience, that is to say what I've seen and what I've heard.
The Party of Communists USA is unilaterally against American Imperialism and any attempt of NATO expansionism into Ukraine. On this critical, and singular, issue that can lead to a world war and nuclear extinction - we have cooperated or participated with any political organization that has this goal as well. This means that if there is a pan-left united front in California that is primarily organized by Trotskyite parties that is organizing anti-war protests, which there is, then PCUSA will participate in coalition to grow the west coast anti-war sentiments, which it has. This means if PSL was organizing an anti-war protest on the east coast against further funding of the Ukraine War and encourages everyone to come and march with them, which they did, then PCUSA will join their protest event and help agitate against the war with them other groups, which it has. If a because by the circumstance of a blue ghoul is in the white house causing a war leads a bunch of hogs and burned out bernie bros to organize an anti-war rally, then any members of PCUSA around there may go there to educate and agitate the people that go there to adopt more anti-war and anti-fascist positions than whatever's planned to be said there.
Secondly, and this is still with my cadre hat on, neither the politburo nor the central committee has made any decision on this because thats a completely irrelevant topic of discussion that would waste valuable time. All clubs can reserve their opinions on the topic and can choose what actions they wish to take to further accomplish their tasks, be that focusing on anti-war agitation, researching historical documents to compile books, entering club members into workplaces with the purpose of unionizing them, doing agitprop art projects, or generally vibing if they're a sole member in an isolated area.
If you have any follow-up questions, or witty comments feel free to state them, be they general or official
Official hat on, I'll forward your comment to the Social Media Department. the split of the ultra-left faction hit the SMD the hardest since all of the splitters were terminally online leftists that manned our internet stuff, which is a shame since they were quite good at it.
And since you tacked on that edit, I'll add that insofar as I am aware on the west coast, when the CPI leadership dissolved itself on the east coast then Maupin undissolved CPI, the west coast CPI split between a few maupin loyalists and quite a few more people that wanted to wash their hands of the group and decided to do their own thing. The group that decided to go their own way are a portion of the pan-left anti-war group ran by Trotskyites and by proximity are the only, formerly associated, 'maupinite' group the party has worked indirectly with since the very fun revelation about his behavior was revealed.
Official hat on, you're welcome. It can take months for any changes to departments by their membership bodies. Additionally it also depends on the individuals composing the collective. An example of this would be that a lot of people would be more affable to the work done by the party LGBT committee (they're working on translating and compiling works of Magnus Hirschfeld) , or the party Animal Rights Committee (they're :im-vegan: ) and some people might not be affable towards other party committees.
Are you against American imperialism and against NATO expansionism?
What if I'm against American Imperialism, NATO expansionism, and red/brown alliances?
American fascists, such as misanthropic or the atomwaffen's "National Socialist Order", nor are the fascist-infiltrated paramilitary groups aren't organizing anti-war protests, they're either participating in the war and getting blown up right now, or agitating for the war, or attempting to accelerate the american collapse through terrorist actions.
I'm done with this. If you and your org think this is the proper course, I'm not going to talk you out of it and you're not going to talk me into it. I'll tell you this, seeing who you all are willing to align with and who your twitter is platforming, I certainly don't feel like PCUSA are my allies right now.
You're more than entitled to your very respectable opinion. So as long as you're against American imperialism and against NATO intervention in the Ukraine War then I'll personally consider you an ally on the issue.
I would gladly burn this country to the ground and live in relative poverty if it would end American imperialism and I could live in peace with the woman I love.
While I'd much rather see an America in the outlines of Z Foster's 'Towards Soviet America' with some edits for modern circumstances, assuming that's not a possible path towards world socialism and peace, I genuinely hope your wish comes true.
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to be blunt, unideological right-wing hogs who're usually herded by reactionary sheepdogs towards interests of empire.
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I agree with you. But that's down the road by roughly two years.
Assuming that two years down the road that the ukraine war concludes, biden loses the whitehouse and trump or depantspiss wins. It would be inevitable that the hogs would go out to brunch and the ghouls would start ratcheting up the war machine with China in the cross-sights.
At this assumed future point, I would pivot towards agitating among the disempowered democrats to being anti-war against the republican government, seeing how it's easily more fertile grounds historically.
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its more than long enough.
Libs and hogs, popularly speaking (as in ground level and not ghoul level) constantly operate in mirrored opposition to each other depending on who's ghouls are cranking the lever for the next 4 years. The only notable time there's been any noticeable change to the undercurrents is in the brief periods where the lever of power is handed off to the other party's ghouls and you see a subsequent fragmenting of the outer edges of the popular sides as one kicks the other out of the brunch seat and starts eating while the ousted one starts griping about not getting their treats. That fragmenting that occurs is the act of radicalization of the most politically conscious people that were within the status quo field that both libs and hogs jostle in. You can see this in how Bernie losing yet Biden winning resulted in the embryo of socialism emerging into the common parlance of America once more after decades of red-baiting.
Simply put, Libs only cling to liberalism until it starts stomping on their face while shouting "MODS! MODS!"
Also, on your note about hogs. We're capital C Communists, We literally champion Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Che, Sankara, Bishop, Foster, Hall, Il-Sung, Jong-Il, and all the countless other heroes of the people they consider 'scary people'. I'm pretty sure that's much more scary, since they're actively financing Ukraine fascism.
Also transmission belts are a thing.
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So I partially agree, partially disagree with this. I would agree with the first part that the material conditions of the majority of politically conscious liberals predispose them to accept any line from their preferred status quo warriors full hook, line, and sinker. The part I would disagree with is having the goal of deprogramming politically concious libs as their material conditions predispose them to supporting the status quo and any attempt to persuade them otherwise results in, at best, creating well-meaning succdems that fundamental want nothing to change and will backstab you the moment you push too hard, at worst repulse them into outright neoliberal anti-communism where they will support fascist death squads hunting you down.
I will also add on the inverse for politically conscious chuds. Their material conditions also push them back towards the status quo, with any attempt to persuade them usually results in at best weirdly conservative succdems - think Trudovik with Right SR characteristics - or at worst the fascist death squads that that neoliberal anti-communists empower to hunt you down.
I would argue the ideal target for for agitation is the generally apolitical worker with whom it doesn't really matter if they unconsciously lean towards liberals or conservatives as they're more interested in improving their material conditions over bickering in the world of pure idealism that is American political theater.
To tie this into where you said...
I would argue in disagreement in that there's always actions that the Communist and Anarchist Left can take that has tangible benefits. This is accomplished by entering critical and supporting workplaces and actively agitating for collective unionization to materially improve the living conditions of your coworkers, or entering into critical and supporting workplaces that has weak unions and growing a more radical wing out of the discontented workers to supplant the union leadership that collaborates with the boss with more militant - and hopefully socialist - leadership. This, and all the other kinds of organizing work - be they tenant's unions, unemployed unions, non-profit insurance companies, ethnic community centers, youth education programs, food distribution centers, etc. - is the real substantive work that builds the power of the Communist and Anarchist Left in America. Continuing on to some other bits of your comment...
I'll be blunt on this, your primary targets at any sort of political event is the people that attend protest events and not any of the organizers themselves, if your group is not also directly organizing the event. Ideally your goal would be to have agitprop pamphlets that's targeted to your audience and educates them with material facts that would point them towards taking a more knowledgeable anti-war position other than whatever claptrap theyve heard before. This could include facts about how this war started in 2014 and was planned for in '91, or playing to their biases and slipping in subtle messages such as "Both Communist China and North Korea support Russia in their war against Biden's NATO globalists and their nazi dogs in Ukraine, which is why Biden is constantly trying to start wars with all of them." And you take those pamphlets and larp as a trotskyite for a hot minute and hand them out as far as you can.
And a final note,
No duh lmao nobody wants to get their ass kicked for being a larper. You should operate with subterfuge in mind. Which is why I referenced transmission belts.
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OPTICS
Oh yeah we’ve gone full circle back to the DNC
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Not the strong argument you think it is here while posturing as the pure socialist
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You can’t have your cake and eat it to oh pure one who dabbles just a bit in liberalism
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Any prioritization of optics above your revolutionary defeatist duty is liberalism yes
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Yes you do, you refuse to participate in a mass movement against imperialist war machine because it would “look bad” on the “left”
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It is your duty as a member of the imperial core to sabotage your own nation’s ability to make war in any way possible, regardless of whether it results in collapse, barbarism, socialism or anything else. Your first duty to the people of the world is to bring down your own beast and stop it’s attacks
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Those “imperialists” are calling to defund CIA and abolish NATO currently and pulling crowds
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Loud mouth morons who happen to be saying something reasonable even if it is for all the wrong reasons?
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No. Nobody is voting. It is like saying killing kittens is bad with some people who probably think killing puppies is ok. They aren't even killing puppies.
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when they say we should go to war with China I will protest them with the democrats who will be against that war
Principled antiwar activists, apparently.
:doubt:
Then you are alone in your house doing nothing
That’s not true, I am organizing with ANSWER Coalition, The People’s Forum, PSL, CodePink in a principled event to demand peace. Not a bunch of fascists, libertarians, and patsoc grifters.
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So lets get this straight for everyone reading this,
This persons response to the fact that "red/brown alliances are bad" is "nothing can be done without allying with fascists".
So in other words, our hero here want a repeat of what happened to all the communists, bless their hearts, who tried a red/brown alliance in
nazilandg*rmany during the mid 20th century.What a fucking genius.
:amerikkka-clap: :amerikkka-clap: :amerikkka-clap:
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doing something automatically being better than doing nothing is some liberal :brainworms: that some of us apparently still need to work on
don't pour water on a grease fire y'know?
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I'd rather be alone in my house than not alone in my house with Tucker Carlson.
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If the only option to defeat fascists is to align with different fascists, then it's time for the nukes to fly.
The fascists are whoever is currently in charge of the globe spanning fascist empire, and it is currently the Liberal Democrats acting most fascistic with their warmongering
Quite convenient of you, a comfortable member of the core, to absolve yourself of all responsibility and demand total destruction of everything instead of putting in any effort in uncomfortable coalition building with those who are aligned with your interests currently
Nuclear war destroys the core, too, you dullard.
And it's the petty sore losers of the core who feel their power slipping that demand the nuclear war, you warmonger
Sore loser? What exactly did I lose?
"there's no anti-war left just nuke everything"
no.
Except there is an anti-war left, several people in this thread have given examples of anti-war protests organized by actual leftists, they just don't have the platform of Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard, because they're actual principled communists and not grifters.
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the empire is liberal. It really diminishes the danger of fascism to just call everyone right wing a fascist.
Fascism isn't just when you're racist violently
Wrong. The American empire is fascist to everyone at the business end of their gun. You are just on the good side of it, so you don’t care.
Democrats are fascists. America is fascist.
Liberalism is violent and exploitative that gun is being used to further the ends of liberalism
When I say something isn't fascist I do not mean that it is good I mean that it is not fascist
America is fascist. In every sense. Fascism doesn’t seem like fascists to those coddled in its embrace
fascism is a very specific idea of how society should be run that is admittedly hard to define but does involve a belief in a societal militarism revolving around a conflict of races whereby only some races have a right to exist that also involves the systematic rooting out and killing of those seen as lesser or subversive.
America is not fascist America is liberal. Liberalism is also horrific
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stop saying fascist as a synonym for bad
America is fascist in the actual sense, you just are inside the core so you cannot see what it really is.
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Sorry but this is just straight up not true. Not because liberals aren't bloodthirsty imperialists, but because right wingers are currently talking about "a throne of Chinese skulls" while gearing up to do Krystalnacht 2 on trans people. There is no cooperation there that doesn't end in mass graves.
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I mean, unless you're signatory to the Grand Red/Brown Alliance Treaty all you're doing is giving brown shirts the power to alter your policy choices by doing whatever they want.
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Let me, for this comment, speak officially as a cadre of the party. This is purely my opinion and perspective that is resulting from my own personal experience, that is to say what I've seen and what I've heard.
The Party of Communists USA is unilaterally against American Imperialism and any attempt of NATO expansionism into Ukraine. On this critical, and singular, issue that can lead to a world war and nuclear extinction - we have cooperated or participated with any political organization that has this goal as well. This means that if there is a pan-left united front in California that is primarily organized by Trotskyite parties that is organizing anti-war protests, which there is, then PCUSA will participate in coalition to grow the west coast anti-war sentiments, which it has. This means if PSL was organizing an anti-war protest on the east coast against further funding of the Ukraine War and encourages everyone to come and march with them, which they did, then PCUSA will join their protest event and help agitate against the war with them other groups, which it has. If a because by the circumstance of a blue ghoul is in the white house causing a war leads a bunch of hogs and burned out bernie bros to organize an anti-war rally, then any members of PCUSA around there may go there to educate and agitate the people that go there to adopt more anti-war and anti-fascist positions than whatever's planned to be said there.
Secondly, and this is still with my cadre hat on, neither the politburo nor the central committee has made any decision on this because thats a completely irrelevant topic of discussion that would waste valuable time. All clubs can reserve their opinions on the topic and can choose what actions they wish to take to further accomplish their tasks, be that focusing on anti-war agitation, researching historical documents to compile books, entering club members into workplaces with the purpose of unionizing them, doing agitprop art projects, or generally vibing if they're a sole member in an isolated area.
If you have any follow-up questions, or witty comments feel free to state them, be they general or official
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Official hat on, I'll forward your comment to the Social Media Department. the split of the ultra-left faction hit the SMD the hardest since all of the splitters were terminally online leftists that manned our internet stuff, which is a shame since they were quite good at it.
And since you tacked on that edit, I'll add that insofar as I am aware on the west coast, when the CPI leadership dissolved itself on the east coast then Maupin undissolved CPI, the west coast CPI split between a few maupin loyalists and quite a few more people that wanted to wash their hands of the group and decided to do their own thing. The group that decided to go their own way are a portion of the pan-left anti-war group ran by Trotskyites and by proximity are the only, formerly associated, 'maupinite' group the party has worked indirectly with since the very fun revelation about his behavior was revealed.
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Official hat on, you're welcome. It can take months for any changes to departments by their membership bodies. Additionally it also depends on the individuals composing the collective. An example of this would be that a lot of people would be more affable to the work done by the party LGBT committee (they're working on translating and compiling works of Magnus Hirschfeld) , or the party Animal Rights Committee (they're :im-vegan: ) and some people might not be affable towards other party committees.
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